I’ve been hounding eager to get Kellye Garrett to join me since last year, friends, and I’m just so happy I finally cornered her she said yes!
As usual, this transcript reflects the content and tone of our chat as faithfully as possible, with some thoughtful editing to make sure things read smoothly.
Show notes are included after this transcript. This episode is hosted on The Incomparable.
TRANSCRIPT:
[jazzy jumpin’ music]
Sandra Wong:
Hello and welcome. This is We Contain Multitudes, the casual interview show with our favourite people, famous and accomplished guests who share the geek-outs, hobbies, and interests which they might not necessarily be known for. It is I, your host, Sandra Wong. And today I am so thrilled to be joined by Kellye Garrett. Hi Kellye.
Kellye Garrett:
I love your podcast voice, Sandra. [both laugh] I was listening to, I think, the Deanna one and I was like, that’s…that’s it. You sound so official. So hello, Podcast Sandra.
SW: [laughing]
Yes, hello. Kellye Garrett. [both laugh] Yeah, this is just so exciting. So I usually like to just say a short spiel about my guests and like, I was thinking of what to do, what to say about you, Kellye, because there’s just so much. [Kellye laughs] You’re so…you’re so amazing. So, of course, friends of the podcast, please, I will, of course, have Kellye’s website in the show notes, and you can check her out that way. So what I want to say, I guess, is a little bit about my history with Kellye. Hahaha… Okay, she’s not looking at me with dread. [Kellye laughs] That’s good, that’s good. So we actually met at a convention called Left Coast Crime and it was in 2019, I think.
KG: Oh, the Before Times.
SW: Yeah, the Before Times in 2019 in Vancouver because it was in, in Canada for I think maybe the first time. And so I just have this image, I have this memory
KG: Oh geez
SW: I was coming up an escalator in the convention hotel, and then you were coming, I think you were with Mia—Mia Manansala, friends of the podcast
KG: Probably.
SW:
who eventually I hope to have on the program as well. But, yeah, I just remember you for sure, Mia for sure. And there may have been some other people. And you were, you just like, happened to cross my way as I came up the escalator and you stopped and I think you introduced yourself. And then you immediately said, are you in Crime Writers of Color? And I was like, Uhhhhh
KG; I was so excited.
SW: I was like, uhhhhh no. And I literally signed up on the spot on my phone because you’re like, okay, just join. And I said—
KG: You know what?
SW: Okay.
KG:
If you go to mystery conferences, unfortunately, they’re not very diverse, especially—they’re more diverse now. But in the Before Times, they definitely weren’t. So whenever I saw a person of color and still to this day, when I see a person of color I do not know at a mystery conference, I get very excited and I’m like, ooh, because I’m a reader and a writer. So either way, I’m like, ooh, another reader or also another writer. So I was super excited to see you, and I’m so happy that you, you listened to me.
SW:
Ye-e-es [laughs] Of course I would listen to you. [Kellye laughs] Yeah. So, I mean, friends, the reason I mentioned Crime Writers of Color is Kellye is one of the co-founders, along with Gigi Pandian and of course, the legendary Walter Mosley. And so this is a group…an association of crime writers at all levels of, of their career who are racialized. And we just have a little private listserv where we, we share about the ups and the downs, the sideways, the side, the sliders, the curveballs, all those things that we might not necessarily feel safe speaking about with our white colleagues because we don’t really feel like they would understand, you know? So it’s a really great group. And Kellye is one of the driving forces. And we are all so grateful for that, Kellye. I mean, not just, I think the members but readers too who are looking for a broader range of crime fiction to read. So, yeah, on behalf of everybody, I say thank you to you, Kellye, for Crime Writers of Color.
KG: You know what? I think the great thing about the group is one, it is a safe space, but also is just that it’s all the members. We started off with 30. Now we have over 500.
SW: Wha-a-t?
KG: I know. All the members are just so supportive and like, you do so much for the group as a volunteer and so many other people. So we
SW: So many.
KG:
have a website, we have a podcast as well. We have a Books page, we have a YouTube. And it’s all because of—I’m not very techie, it’s just all because of other people have volunteered, you know, and it’s such a, I’m so protective of it in a way, because it’s such a great, safe space for people.
SW: Yeah, yeah. I am fiercely protective of it as well.
KG: So, so much.
SW: Yeah. And I definitely have a link to that for anyone who’s interested in checking all of us out. So this is about Kellye—
KG: If you’re, if you’re an author of color…
SW: [laughing] Right.
KG: If you’re thinking about writing crime fiction, you should also join us.
SW: Yes, yes.
KG: Don’t wait for me to find you at a, at a Left Coast Crime.
SW: [laughs]
Absolutely. Absolutely. So Kellye herself, with her work, actually, Crime Writers of Color as a group, has won a Raven Award for service to the genre. So that’s, I think we’re all really proud of that. Kellye herself…
KG: And a Bouchercon award, but it’s a David…they’re going to kill me. I forgot the name of it. But there’s also a Bouchercon award that we actually won, too.
SW: Yes. I think it’s like, David, David Thompson..?
KG: Thompson. There it is.
SW: Yeah, David Thompson.
KG: Maybe…is there an ‘e’ in there..?
SW:
Maybe. Maybe. [both chuckle] But we are very grateful. Yes, we are very grateful. And Kellye herself, I’m going to get to this point. Kellye herself is a multiple award winner for her writing, her fiction writing. In addition to being an outspoken activist for racialized and marginalized crime writers, Kellye has a master’s in screenwriting. And—
KG: I do.
SW: Ye-e-es.
KG: I just paid it off. [chuckles]
SW: Oh my God, congratulations. That’s huge.
KG: Thank you. Thank you. It took like, 20 years, but I paid it off.
SW:
Kellye’s also been a TV show writer. I, I’ve read everything of Kellye’s, so. She writes smart crime fiction with social commentary and humour. Kellye is one of the sharpest people I know, and so we usually talk shop. So I am so excited to talk about her nerd hobby. [Kellye laughs] So what? What do you want to share with us today, Kellye?
KG: It’s actually—surprise, it’s tarot, but I want to talk more about tarot deck collecting because I do, I do practice, but… I kept buying decks and I kept buying decks and finally I said, let me just admit that I am a collector. So I am a tarot deck collector.
SW:
Ye-e-es! So of course, friends again, t-a-r-o-t, taro. Not the potato. Although we we… If you want to talk about taro, someone out there [both laugh] who is also famous, you’re welcome, you’re welcome to reach out. Yes. So first of all, did you get into tarot deck collecting because you got into tarot? And if so, how did you get into tarot?
KG:
So essentially, let’s say maybe 12 years ago, my sister had a tarot reader come do, at a party at her house, and she was there and my cousin was there, maybe a couple other people, and he was super accurate. He told me, but like, in a weird way, where it was like, you need to quit your job and teach. That’s what he said to me… I just had a realization we’ll talk about later. Anyway. And so, I ended up quitting my job, but getting another job. And then I ended up doing some teaching with Gotham Writers Workshop. And so it was just really weird how, how it worked out. And then after that, my cousin, who was like my best friend, bought a tarot deck, and because she bought a tarot deck, then of course, I was like, well, if Raven has a tarot deck, then I have to have a tarot deck. [Sandra laughs] So I bought a tarot deck, Raven bought a tarot deck, and then. I think Raven, I don’t even think collects anymore or anymore, but I ended up…going bananas and just.
SW: Right
KG: You know, and I had a journey of how I started collecting and how I collect now because it’s been such a long time, you know, and so we could talk about that if you want. But that’s just how it kind of got started.
SW: So before, you mentioned that that one tarot reader was very accurate. Had you already been into readings?
KG: No, I had never had it before, you know. My family, I’m not going to call my family witchy because it’s—people have a negative connotation. But my family, like, I have people in my family who can read, and
SW: Yeah
KG: a lot of, especially my, my mother’s mother’s side, we tend to be a little bit psychic, but like—
SW: Ohhhh.
KG: I’m like, psychic in a really, a not helpful way. [Sandra laughs] Like, I might be like, this is how I’m psychic…
SW: Okay. [laughing]
KG:
I’m like, I might be like, oh, I need a new curling iron, and then like, two weeks later, my curling iron breaks. [Sandra laughs] So I’m psychic in that way. I’m not saying again, like I’m like a, what are the lotto numbers? [Sandra cracks up] That’s the way I’d want to be psychic, but I’m not. I’m psychic in like, a premonition type of way for…for tech. For like, you know, stuff…curling irons and flat irons and things like that, you know. And my it’s also, it’s kind of sometimes and I think some people might be more psychic than they think. Sometimes I might think of somebody or something, and then when I contact them, something has happened.
SW: Ohhhh.
KG: Yeah. So I think sometimes if you, if someone randomly comes into your mind, people, it might be because you’re a little psychic.
SW: Yeah. And you should reach out to that person.
KG: Yeah. You should reach out to them.
SW: That’s so interesting. I have had that happen where I’m thinking of someone I haven’t thought about in years, and then they reach out or I hear something about them. It’s just wild.
KG: Yeah. I’ve had that happen a couple times.
SW: Very woo. Which I believe in. Woo.
KG: Yeah [chuckles]
SW: So this is a, this is a safe space for woo. [both chuckle] I want everyone to know this. So, your first deck. What was your first deck?
KG: My first deck—because I have a listing here because I know you were going to ask. My first deck was called the Sharman-Caselli deck.
SW: Okay.
KG: And I bought it because it was part of, like, a beginner tarot readers…tarot readers kit. And it had a book, a very extensive book, and it had a deck. And do you…do you, like, know anything about tarot? I know you had that conversation with Deanna…
SW: Everything I learned about tarot, I learned from that conversation with Deanna Raybourn. [laughs]
KG:
So essentially with tarot, there are different type of decks, but the main deck is the Rider Waite Smith deck, right? And it was created by, the artwork was created by a woman named Pamela Coleman Smith. And it was essentially the first deck that for all the cards, they were illustrated.
SW: Right. Ohhh.
KG:
You know, historically, historically they would they have the Major Arcana cards and the Minor Arcanas. And traditionally, the majors have always been illustrated, but the minors would be like oh Six of Pentacles, and it would just be six pentacles. You know, six of cups, and six…cups.
SW: Okay.
KG: And so they were the first ones to actually illustrate it.
SW: Okay.
KG:
And so my first deck was—also, because this was like, 1903 maybe? I don’t know the right dates, I don’t…[Sandra laughs] Don’t, don’t write in to Sandra mad at me because I don’t know the dates. [Sandra laughs] But back then, it was, there’s a rumor that Pamela Coleman Smith might have been Black, but it’s never been confirmed. But however—
SW: Ahhh
KG: everybody in that deck was white.
SW: Yeah.
KG: You know, and so, my first deck, Sharman-Caselli, was a deck that was very much based on Rider Waite Smith. So it was just a bunch of very, like, old…old-school looking all-white people.
SW: Yeah.
KG: And again, like, I just didn’t realize. So I just got that deck and I was trying to learn on it.
SW: Yeah.
KG: And, but I don’t—I still have it, just for sentimental reasons, but I don’t use it anymore just because it does not speak to me. It was just the first deck I bought. So it has a special place, but it was not, it’s not a deck I used.
SW: Yeah, yeah.
KG: So.
SW: Okay, what about your cousin Raven? [laughs] What was her first deck?
KG:
I can’t, I can’t remember her first deck. I’m sure it was probably like another similar situation. She got, she had numerology cards at one point because I think she gave a pair to me too. But I don’t know what Raven’s first deck was. I know I’ve given her—I’ve called them rehoming. I’ve rehomed some decks with her before
SW: Yeah.
KG: but at the time, that was again, like, my, my first deck was just this very…I would never buy or look at it today, but it came with a book and it was teaching you how to read tarot.
SW: Well, shout out to Kellye’s cousin Raven
KG: Raven-n-n!
SW: for motivating Kellye to start. [both laugh] So yeah, I would love to hear the story of how you, you built your collection.
KG:
So I just, after that, I kept getting, I started buying other, other tarot decks. One thing— I know people hate Amazon for various reasons, but one thing that’s great about Amazon is everything you’ve ever bought with them is listed. And so like, I that’s how sometimes I remember what I bought at the beginning
SW: Right.
KG: because I rehome decks I don’t connect with. And so I can see, like, the decks that I bought right away, you know, and it took me a while to kind of put together that you need to buy decks that…when you see the meaning on the card, it resonates with you
SW: Mm-hm
KG:
you know. So like, for instance, I don’t know…Eight of Pentacles is traditionally a card of working, you know, and it’s interesting to see how people kind of show that, you know, and so. But if you have a thing and the way that they’re working doesn’t resonate with you… Whenever I see that, I’m not going to think of what it should mean.
SW: Oh.
KG:
You know, and so I ended up getting a deck, which I’ve also since rehomed, called the Crystal Vision, and that was the deck that actually made me go, oh, I need to really look, not just try to memorize the meanings. I need to actually look at these cards and see how this illustration, how they’ve interpreted this traditional meaning, and make sure that resonates with me.
SW: Yeah.
KG: So that was the next big deck I got, was Crystal Visions. And it was like, this really pretty, very feminine, girly deck. Again, no people of color in it.
SW: Right.
KG: You know, but it was just that I was like, oh, this makes more sense to me.
SW: Yeah.
KG: You know, and then I ended up getting a deck, which I rehomed that I got again. It was called the So Below Deck…So Below Book of Shadows Deck. And that deck took the traditional meanings and made them very modern.
SW: Okay.
KG:
So for instance, the Four of Swords is a card of rest. And in the traditional RWS, it’s literally, he almost looks dead. [Sandra laughs] It’s a man, like, laying in what looks like a coffin, and he has like, both his hands in, like, a prayer thing. And like, it’s supposed to be rest. But I always think he looks dead [chuckles]
SW: Right. [chuckles]
KG: Okay? So to me, I don’t see that card necessarily and go like, oh, I should rest. I think, oh my God, I’m going to die. [Sandra laughs] You know, like that’s what I think, right?
SW: [laughing] Right.
KG: But for instance, in the So Below, Book of Shadows, she’s in the tub.
SW: Ah! Right.
KG:
And so I was like, oh, you know what? I like— My tarot style, because again, at this point, there are probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions of versions of RWS… I like really modern interpretations of tarot. And so, that’s kind of where I got—and also was very it was very diverse.
SW: Yeah.
KG: That’s where I kind of got, okay, I figured out my niche and what I like to collect, and that is very modern illustrated decks that are diverse.
SW: Okay.
KG: So, so not every deck I own has that, but that’s kind of my base. If you have a deck, if you find a modern deck, send me the link because I’m going to, if I don’t have it already, I’m going to probably buy it. So yeah.
SW: Okay. And so do you, do you practice every day? Like, what do you do with your decks?
KG:
I go, it depends. I go through periods where I practice too much and I, you know, I try to do a daily pull. But again, sometimes I’m doing it every day and sometimes I don’t. You know, sometimes I just like to look at how pretty, pretty my decks are. I have decks that I collect now that sometimes I just accept that I’m a collector, and I will just buy a deck knowing I’m never going to use it, and it’s just to collect it. I have decks that I, that I call my decks, that I use for myself, that I love. You know, and I have decks that I do readings for other people, which is not a lot. I do have those decks too.
SW: Right. And then do you like, do you have a special place that you keep your decks? [laughs]
KG:
I should. The ones that I use for myself, I keep them in a box center. That’s like a, like, you know, a little design-y box on my, on my dresser. But I just keep them in drawers. [chuckles] Like, my mom always jokes like what, she’s like, when you die, your niece, your niece and nephew, you’re going to have finding decks everywhere. And they are, because I have it in this drawer. And then I have it over here in this drawer, and I have it downstairs and upstairs, and this, in the closet. So I have them everywhere because I have, I just looked. I currently own about 96 decks.
SW: Wha-a-t?
KG: Some of them are oracle decks. And then I’ve rehomed, which is given away. I’ve given away 40 so I’ve…owned over 100.
SW: Over 100. So what do you mean by, some of them are just oracle decks?
KG:
So there’s tarot decks which, again, it’s a traditional system of 78 cards with different meanings. And then they have what they call oracle decks, which again are also meant to kind of do the same thing, you know, with that, you know, fortune telling. But it’s not that thing. It could be like—it might be pretty pictures of, I don’t know, animals or for actual fortune telling or just different advice. I don’t connect with oracle decks as much as I connect with traditional tarot decks. I’ve tried, I have tried, I’ve told Mia, Mia, I keep trying to buy these deck oracle decks. And then I get them, you know, I like, pull a card, it’ll just be like, an animal and they’ll be like, Be careful or, you know, or something [Sandra laughs] or like, you know, “smile.” And I’m like, I don’t know…like, like smile, what does that mean? Like, you know? So that I don’t connect, I’ve tried to. I found a couple ones I kind of connect with, but I’ve kind of given up finally on buying a bunch of Oracle decks.
SW: I have to admit, that sounds like—the oracle decks that you were just talking about not connecting with—that sounds like the modern day fortunes from fortune cookies.
KG: Yeah, exactly.
SW: [laughs] They’re not really…
KG:
But they’ll have beautiful, beautiful pictures, you know, and there are some really beautiful oracle decks that I’m like, that’s so pretty. But then again, it just will say like, “smile” on it or, you know, like. Or like, you know, “cougar.” And again, I don’t connect with that. And I’m like, not that person who’s going to, like, rush to the book and like, try to like think— Like, some people because tarot has a lot of symbolism in it.
SW: Yeah.
KG:
I’m not the chick who who’s reading the symbolism in it, you know, I’m like, I just want to look at it and see what I know it means, and then figure out how that works with the other cards or whatever’s going on in my life, or whoever I’m talking to’s life. I don’t want to be like, trying to figure out what the cougar means.
SW: [laughs] Okay. So when you do pull for yourself, is there a ritual attached to that for you?
KG: I’m not a ritual chick, either. You know what I will do? I try to, I feel like…to me, God and the universe are interconnected. So to me, I’m always like, God, Universe: like, what do you want me to know?
SW: Right.
KG: You know, I tend to get certain card a lot.
SW: Mmm.
KG: I get the Magician. Which is the second—is it the second card in the Major Arcana..? And it’s very much about, to me, that’s the card of saying you have the ability to make magic happen.
SW: Right.
KG: And then I get the Chariot a lot. And the Chariot is a card that for me is a card of, you’re going to get pulled in different directions, you have to just stay focused, eyes on the prize.
SW: Okay.
KG: You know, so to me, I have certain meanings to cards that when I get them, it’s like God and the universe kind of reminding me, like, Kellye, you could do this, or Kellye, you know, stay focused. So.
SW: Oh. So then, you just like, I mean…how do you know you want to pull a card? How do you—like, is it just like a feeling?
KG: Right. Yeah. And it’s not, it’s just—like, it’s almost too—sometimes, I depend on them too much. I think that can be a, that can be a danger or—
SW: What does that mean?
KG:
Well, I keep asking the same question. Like, every day I’m like, and I know they’re like, can you stop freaking asking me the same questions? [Sandra laughs] Can you stahp it? Can you stop it? You know, I don’t know. I, I’m also—when I read books, I’m the person who, who skips to the end and reads the ending, and then I’ll still read the book. I don’t—I love a spoiler.
SW: Huh!
KG: I love a spoiler. So to me, a tarot card could be a spoiler. Like, so I’m all like, let me know what’s going on, and I’ll ask you too much.
SW: Yeah. Wow. [Kellye chuckles] Okay. Do you have, like—
KG: I feel like you’re learning new things about me.
SW: I am learning new things and I love it. Do you have a favourite deck?
KG:
I do have a couple of favorites. So, there is a deck called the Kaleidadope Deck, and it is by a Black woman. I should know her name. I want to say it’s Krystal Banner, and it is a very modern, very pro-Black deck. And she has… So there are different versions of tarot. So again, there’s 78 cards, and there are some people who will just take the traditional Rider Waite Smith interpretations and then just do their own version of that. Like, they might make— I have a Black Femme Tarot, which they take the exact same illustrations and they just make it with fat Black women. So that’s a clone.
SW: Right.
KG: And then you also have people who are based on Rider Waite Smith, but they do their own really creative interpretations of it.
SW: Yeah.
KG: You know, so, for instance, the Eight of Wands is a card of movement. And in a traditional deck, it’s literally eight, like, kind of arrows about to be shot off.
SW: Okay. Yeah.
KG: In her deck, it’s the track. it’s literally like a track and it’s the finish line of a track. And I thought, that’s such a creative interpretation of the Eight of Wands because track. I love track, it’s, you’re moving, you’re going fast.
SW: Yeah.
KG: You know, and so I thought that was such a creative interpretation. So she has this deck that she’s had and I tried I… She’s the only deck—I have two decks, I have two copies of.
SW: Yeah.
KG:
And hers is the, the last one of them. And I bought it because I used that deck so much that it’s beat up and, and it’s an independent deck. It’s not mass market. So if she decides never to print it again, I’m never going to be able to get a copy. So I asked her and she happened to have some extra copies and I bought a second copy. It is in a box, not even out the box. It is never been opened and it is just my backup copy of the deck in case something happens to my beloved copy.
SW: Wow.
KG: [laughing] I’m serious. This is not a game.
SW: No, no. [Kellye laughs] Well, I mean, that’s the thing about collecting. Like, each collector has their own unique reason that it speaks to them, right? So, I mean, when we’re talking like, in this whole, like, my podcast, the whole point of it is, is I’m so curious to know what people are passionate about.
KG: Yeah.
SW: Right? And clearly, you’re really passionate about this. So, you said you had a couple favourites.
KG: Yes.
SW: So let us know some of the other favorites. And of course I will link to all the decks that Kellye mentioned. I’m actually going to ask her for her list. [laughs]
KG:
Ooh, it’s 90—it’s 97. So another deck that I love is called the Tarot of Oneness, which I think is still in print, and it is this beautiful deck because it is… With traditional tarot decks, you’re looking at the person doing something. And with the Tarot of Oneness, it’s from your point of view.
SW: Yeah, okay, that makes sense by the name, yeah.
KG:
You know, so you’re kind of looking out at whatever is going on, you know? So for instance, with a strength card, traditionally it is a woman kind of like taming a lion in a way. She’s, she’s holding his, his mouth open or, you know, or not letting his mouth bite or whatever. But in the deck of the Tarot of Oneness, if you’re looking out actually at—I don’t think it’s a lion, it might just be a leopard—at a big, a big animal.
SW: Right.
KG: You know, and you’re like, you’re not scared because they’re calmly looking at you, you know. And so that’s, I love the deck and the colors are just so vibrant. And again, it’s just a beautiful, creative take on traditional Rider Waite Smith interpretations and imagery.
SW:
Yeah. So like, that brings up a question for me about, like, the gendered-ness of the images. Are they often—like, the Rider Waite Smith, I only know some of them, right, because they’re just in popular, the popular consciousness, right? We’ve all seen probably images of them, and I don’t really get a sense that it’s mostly men depicted or mostly women depicted, but I, I do get the sense that most of your decks are depicting women. Is this, would this be accurate?
KG: I tend to, I have one deck, it’s very masculine. I tend to have decks that are either very, very feminine, or very, just are mixed, you know. I have a couple of decks that have, like, non-binary people, and I have a couple of decks that are very queer.
SW: Yeah.
KG: I try to have a bunch of like— I collect, especially if there is a marginalized creator, I’m definitely going to buy that deck to support because I want to support them. And they also are very creative and beautiful.
SW: Yeah.
KG:
You know, so I tend to, yes, I tend to do more decks that are more feminine. But I think I just think unfortunately because of maybe even stereotypes, because I don’t think every tarot deck reader is, you know, a woman or, you know. But a lot of them are. That tends to be a lot more, you know, there are men I have seen, a lot of men I’ve seen who do it online, tend to be queer or queer-presenting, at least. And so I just tend to, if I saw a deck and it was all men and I thought I was connected to it, I would buy it. It just so happens that most of the decks I see that are modern are either, you know, mixed or is women, or, you know.
SW: It strikes me too that, perhaps most, perhaps there is a majority of people who read tarot who are women. And so from that pool are the artists, the creators who make their own decks.
KG: Yeah.
SW: So that would make sense too.
KG:
Yeah, I want to say the majority of the people who I have, who are my creators, are women. I have a couple of men I know those, I know they’re male creators. I don’t, you know, I don’t really look them up per se, but I tend to care more about diversity within the deck. But if I definitely know you’re a marginalized creator, then I will definitely buy it.
SW: Yeah. So where do you find out about new decks? New-to-you decks?
KG: I’m like. Okay, so Kickstarter is great.
SW: Yep.
KG:
I, I didn’t get my first indie deck from Kickstarter, but I can remember the first indie, first Kickstarter deck I’ve done. So it’s great because they can go online and they’ll show, put their deck on there and you can, you know, support them. And if they make their goal, they can make the deck. They get their money. Kickstarter is kind of tricky because they might say, oh, you’ll have the deck by September and you never have it by September. [Sandra chuckles] You know, creatives are not the best, the most business savvy, you know, and especially if it’s their first deck, they don’t realize how much work goes into it.
SW: Yeah.
KG: I’ll do, I’ll even like, just type in, like, “tarot decks coming soon.” Etsy has a lot. Etsy unfortunately has a lot of AI, so you have to be careful of that.
SW: Yes. Yep.
KG:
People at this point in crime fiction know I love tarot. So like, Mia and I will just send each other links. Won’t even say anything. I’ll just click, put a—drop a link in the DM and she’ll drop a link in the DM, you know. And so I just get it from recommendations. I love going on YouTube. So there’s a lot of, you know, tarot deck collection videos on YouTube. But if I see one I love, I will buy it. You know, if I see a deck that I think might be cool because… A lot of times when they show decks online, they don’t show every, every card. And I would hate to, you know, have what they call pips, is when they don’t have illustrations for the Minors. Or I would hate to think that a lot of the interpretations of the cards, I don’t, don’t resonate with me. So I do try to do, look at flip-throughs. And if I look at a flip-through and I think, oh, this is, it looks really cool, I’ll definitely go and buy it.
SW: Yeah. Right.
KG:
A lot of times you have to cut it down because again, it’s indie creators and trying to figure out, you know, you can’t just go on Amazon and buy it because it’s an indie creator. So you have to find their website. You have to see hopefully they’re, you know, it’s not all sold out. Sometimes they might do a second or third edition, sometimes they don’t. So I don’t—I only buy new, I don’t buy second hand.
SW: Okay.
KG: This is just because I just don’t.
SW: Yeah. Well and then too I would guess that Amazon because they have very lax [Sandra may or may not have snorted at this] regulations about “ai” for books. They probably have lots more “ai” on there than on Kickstarter.
KG: Unfortunately there’s also a lot of bootleg copies.
SW: Right.
KG: Here’s the thing. If you go on Temu or what’s it, Alibaba, whatever.
SW: Yeah.
KG: And you see a deck on there, 99.99999% of the time that’s going to be a bootleg deck. And so for instance, I love this deck that was called The Doodle Tarot. And it’s truly just a Rider Waite Smith deck, but she kind of draws it with like, stick figures.
SW: Oh, okay. [laughs with delight]
KG: It’s the cutest deck, I love it. And then I googled it and then I was like, oh, I can find it. And I click on it and it’s Temu. I was like, oh, that’s not her. That’s not they’re, I don’t know, that’s not they’re…. They’re not getting money off that, you know? And of course I go to their Instagram and they’re complaining the fact that if you buy on Temu, it’s kind of like with writing, if you buy a bootleg book, I’m not getting the money from it. So you might think that you’re, oh, I love reading so much, but then you’re also not supporting authors. And also you’re risking the, like, the creative lives of authors, because that doesn’t count as a sale for me.
SW: Yep.
KG:
You know, so you love my book so much that you bootleg it and then you really don’t. Because you’re not going to get more books from me because my sales aren’t going to be great. And that’s a similar thing that goes on with, with tarot, is a lot of bootlegging. And then again, now with the AI, it’s causing, it’s hard to, to kind of, you know, find true creators. They’re all still out there. Luckily, you kind of usually tell an AI deck and the bootleg decks. There are certain ways you can tell about it, but you have to sometimes be very, you know…
SW: Yeah.
KG: Do your research.
SW: Yeah. It seems to me that Kickstarter, I mean, it’s the same thing that Deanna has said, that Kickstarter is a really wonderful resource for finding decks.
KG: Love it.
SW: So friends of the podcast, though, just as Kellye says, please be kind to your creators, your indie creators, because things happen, life happens, and it may take longer…
KG:
There was a deck that I got and it’s been like 3 or 4 years, and people still don’t have their decks and I feel bad. And so…It’s funny because sometimes people will get mad about a deck being like a month late, and I’m like, you must have never done a Kickstarter. [Sandra laughs] What I do is I’ll just go and I will, you know, support it, and then I’ll get the deck when I get the deck.
SW: Yeah. It’ll happen when it happens.
KG: It comes when it comes. You know, I purchase and forget. It’s a surprise when it comes. [both laugh]
SW: Well, it’s kind of ironic that people who are into tarot would be, like—
KG: Impatient…impatient, right?
SW: Yeah. [laughing]
KG: [chuckles] Yeah, I’ve had a couple of good, a couple bad. But my first Kickstarter was really, really bad.
SW: Oh.
KG:
And it’s funny because that person, when she finally got the decks out, it became really popular. And a lot of times what happens, which is really cool too, is if a deck might be really popular or they might really like it, then the mass market publishers like Llewellyn, US Games, will buy it and they’ll make mass market versions of it. And so that even to me makes the indie deck even more special because again, I truly have, you know, an indie edition of a deck that’s now very popular. But it’s not, it’s not [puts on a conspiratorial voice] I have the indie edition.
SW: [laughs] Yeah.
KG: It’s very cool.
SW: So is your ninety—your current 96. I’m just going to say current…97. 96 or 97?
KG: I think it’s 96, probably because…hold on…it’s 96.
SW: Okay.
KG: Just checking my list.
SW: Your current 96 deck collection. Is it a mix, then? What’s the mix of indie versus published? Is that, is that the right term, “published”?
KG: It’s, it’s mass market.
SW: Mass market. Thank you.
KG: It is probably 60/40. Like I said, I rehome decks a lot if I don’t resonate. But I don’t rehome indie decks just because, again, I think they’re collector’s items. I tend to rehome mass market decks.
SW: Yeah.
KG: So of the 40 that I have rehomed, yeah, they’re all—there’s one indie listed and they’re all mass market.
SW: Right.
KG: Like they’re all mass market.
SW: So, who do you rehome them with? [laughs]
KG: That’s a tricky thing. It’s because you want to find people who will…who will appreciate them.
SW: Yeah.
KG:
There’s this, there’s this idea, which is not true, that you’re not supposed to technically buy your—That was my Amazon, that was—[Sandra laughs] You’re not supposed to technically—my Alexa, sorry— You’re not supposed to technically buy your first deck, which is not true. You can buy your first deck. So I tend to if someone I think is interested in tarot, I will happily send them, rehome a deck for them.
SW: Oh.
KG:
You know, if I have friends, like I might be like, hey, do you think this is a deck that you like? You know, I will like, I’ve done that for Julie Hennrikus, you know, and Mia and so. And she’s done the same for me. So that’s where it is. I have a, my god-sister is really, really, really into tarot. And she had lost all of her decks in this flood.
SW: Oh no.
KG: And so she’s always, always my first, my first person to be like, hey, do you want this deck?
SW: Yeah, well, I do think… I mean, I understand there are traditions, right? So yeah, some people think, don’t buy yourself decks, but how else are you going to get exactly what you want? [laughs]
KG: Exactly. You can definitely buy yourself, like—I bought my first deck. So.
SW: Yeah. [both laugh] Okay. So I think there was a story that you referenced way at the beginning of our convo, but for the life of me, I cannot remember what you referenced. Oh well. You’re looking at me, it’s the same, too. Maybe…
KG: Is it about a book..?
SW: we’re talking about just, like, your collection story, journey.
KG: Maybe. I think… There’s a lot of different books.
SW: Okay
KG: You know, Kris Waldherr, she does, she created the Goddess Tarot, and so she has books about it. She’s also an author about, like, writing, writing for tarot. You know, I just started my Substack, which is about combining tarot with crime fiction.
SW: Yeah.
KG: You know, there’s also other type of books. So there’s books about just learning the tarot, you know, learning reversals or learning, you know, the core cards or different elements of it. There’s probably just many as books as there are tarot decks.
SW:
Yeah. [chuckling] I’m also just, like, thinking about all of your tarot decks stashed around your home. [Kellye chuckles] Like, just a little surprise for anyone, someone coming to your home, they’re looking for a pair of scissors… [Kellye cracks up] They open up a drawer—
KG: First of all, I would never let them go near my tarot doors. [Sandra laughs] Sorry. I’m like, Stop. Stop what you’re doing right now.
SW: [cracking up] Really? Okay, so that, okay, so. I normally I don’t—
KG: I wouldn’t let people… You could look at my decks, but you’re not going to use them for my…you know, and I would happily show them to you. But you’re not going to like, take them and use my decks.
SW: No.
KG: Once I rehome them, it’s fine, but [Sandra laughs] they’re my decks, you’re not touching them.
SW: Okay. So [laughingly] I couldn’t even just, like, pick one up to look at it. You would have to, like, pick it up and show me. I just want to be clear. [laughs]
KG: Oh my God, that’s a hard question. How dare you stump me with a question?
SW: [laughing] I know. Kellye is giving me a look, friends, a look.
KG: I feel like you’re my friends, you might be able to look at one…
SW: Okay. [laughs]
KG: but you’re not going to hold the whole deck.
SW: Wow. Okay. I mean, no judgments, absolutely none. Because—
KG: What happens if something accidentally, like, messes, like, ruins my, like, my card
SW: Yeah.
KG: and it’s an indie deck and it’s out of print? What am I going to do?
SW: Yeah, exactly. It’s like people who collect comics and they’ve got them in the sleeve
KG: Yeah, yeah.
SW: and you’re not to take them out, ever, how dare you?
KG: I know, because, yeah, once you, if you ruin it just by casually going through…
SW: Yeah.
KG: It’s gone.
SW: What if your hands—what if my hands were dirty? What if I haven’t washed my hands?
KG: Exactly! And again, these are cards, so they are like playing cards. You know, they are, they can easily bend and break and all that stuff.
SW: Fair. Very, very fair.
KG: And here’s, what’s even worse, what if you lose a card? That’s like my biggest fear is that…I might lose one of the cards of my 78.
SW: Eeee.
KG: We only have 77. And then again, if it’s out of print, you know, or I have to, have to buy another one. Like, and I probably would, but I don’t want, like, that’s not ideal.
SW:
Yeah. I just got an idea for, like, a character in something or other in some future book of mine, who has tarot decks and loses one and then like, that’s just like the itch at the back of their mind…
KG: Oh my…
SW: They cannot stand it.
KG: God, that would be like the worst nightmare. [Sandra laughs] Because, for everybody, for everyone who’s like me as a collector…there is somebody who just has one deck that is so worn out and so loved.
SW: Yeah
KG:
They just have that one deck and that’s the one they use. And then what happens is when they’re finally ready to, they can’t use it anymore. Then, now they have to find that other deck that they connect with. And the question is, do I get the same type of deck? Then again, what if it’s out of print, right? Like, get something different? So there’s, there’s someone who’s the complete opposite of me who has the same fears.
SW: Right.
KG: Yeah. It’s not just me.
SW: No, no. Absolutely not just you. Yeah. Okay. I mean, do you have a favourite, other than Kickstarter… I guess not. I was going to ask you, do you have a favourite other place that you, like, are trawling for new decks? But it sounds like that might be—
KG: I think Etsy. I think, you know, it’s always good to go to like the websites of like Llewellyn or US Games and kind of see… There’s some indie publishers. Just kind of see what, what they have coming soon.
SW: Yeah.
KG: You know, and the thing that’s horrible again is because it’s “coming soon.” So I’m like, oh, I got, I want it now and I have to wait. It’s over. It’s horrible.
SW: [laughs] Yeah.
KG: You know what they’re doing now a lot? They’re doing now, let’s say you like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. They’re doing Buffy the Vampire Slayer decks.
SW: Yeah.
KG: Which is all just Buffy characters. So that’s the same thing, too. If you love, like, Buffy, you love tarot, you can get a Buffy deck. Or you can get, like, a Jane Austen. It’s just really cool, all the different creative ways that they’re doing that.
SW: That is super cool.
KG: Yeah.
SW: Yeah, I’m imagining it… There’s got to be a Friends deck, right?
KG: I’m sure there probably is. [Sandra laughs] There’s a, there’s two Mean Girl decks because there’s an indie deck and they did an official deck.
SW: Yeah.
KG: So there’s everything. And there’s, like, Taylor Swift decks. These, these are all like, you’re not, they’re not sanctioned.
SW: [laughing] Yeah. On the down low, friends. Do not tell me if you’re looking and buying this, okay. [Kellye laughs] Just don’t tell me that. I don’t need to know, okay?
KG: If you were looking, though, Kickstarter is a great place to start. But you didn’t hear that from us. [laughs]
SW:
Yeah. We didn’t… What? What? We’re just gonna static that part out. [both laugh] Okay, well, thanks, Kellye, for sharing with us, like your collection journey and also exactly how many you have and just being honest about, you know, rehoming decks and like [both laugh] Whether or not people are allowed to touch.
KG: [laughing] I feel like your feelings are hurt and I’m sorry
SW: Oh my gosh, no!
KG: but I’m also not. I’m not sorry. I’m not sorry, but I’m sorry. [laughs]
SW: No, no, there’s no need to apologize. I have things that I have put away because people are not allowed to touch them. Like, no.
KG: Yeah.
SW:
Childhood things. Like, nobody touches that. SorryNotSorry. So I absolutely understand. [Kellye laughs] Okay, so we’re just going to move into the Small Joys portion of the program. So. Kellye Garrett, what is something that you do or that you have that lifts your spirits when you need it.
KG: I’m a bath person, I love taking baths.
SW: Ye-e-es.
KG:
Water is my happy place. There’s a…Yasmin Angoe’s going to laugh. There is a Korean day spa that’s about like, 45 minutes from my house called Sojo. And it’s, it’s very, it’s definitely very Instagram-y like, but it’s also just great because it has a bunch of different tubs and saunas and steam rooms, and I just… I’ve snuck there twice recently and just kind of, it’s just nice to be. I like being in water. I like to be in, like, pool…
SW: Yeah.
KG: I like to be in warm water. So like, not pools. I’m not going to be sitting in the ocean, but like, a good hot tub…Jacuzzi. I take baths all the time.
SW: Yeah
KG: Makes me happy. I have a whole setup. I got the, you know, the Epsom salt. I have the, you know, the bubble bath. I have my little tray so I can like, you know, read.
SW: Yep. Yeah, that’s great.
KG: I don’t do, I don’t do tarot in the bath, though, because if it falls into the water, that would be bad.
SW: Yeah, right. Terrifying.
KG: I’d rather, I’d rather bring my tablet into the bath than my tarot deck.
SW: [cracks up] Got it. We all need priorities. [Kellye chuckles] We all need priorities. Okay. Thank you for telling us. I also love baths.
KG: It’s the best!
SW: I feel you. Yeah.
KG: It’s the best.
SW: I’m not a huge fan of pools.
KG: Yeah, no.
SW: [laughs]
Yeah. Okay, so we are going to end on the Speed Round, my world famous Speed Round.
KG: Oh? Okay.
SW: So I ask you silly questions, you give me whatever reply comes to mind. There’s no judgments, there’s no stakes. It’s just for fun. Okay?
KG: Okay.
SW: Okay, so this season, season two, I am doing favourites. So you can—I’m going to ask you certain categories. And you can give me the favorite or a favorite because sometimes it’s hard to choose just one thing. Okay. Are you ready?
KG: Okay, I’m ready.
SW: Okay. Your favourite way or ways to eat potatoes.
KG: Mashed.
SW: Mashed with? With…anything? Just…
KG: Yeah. No. You can put some cream in there. First off, you boil them. You boil them in chicken broth.
SW: Ah!
KG: Mix them with a pro blender, with cream. So. And you can combine, if you do russet with a combine, with Idaho, it’s a good bit.
SW: Nice. Thanks for that tip. [Kellye laughs] I didn’t know I would get a little recipe, but I love it.
KG: But put lots of butter in there. Butter and garlic salt.
SW: Ah-huh. [laughs] The secret ingredient to happiness. Okay. Favourite pizza toppings?
KG: I’m just a cheese girl. I’m so boring.
SW: Really?
KG: Yeah I don’t, yeah I don’t like pepperoni. No sausage, I might do a chicken. I might do a chicken, but I prefer just cheese.
SW: Yeah, like I said, no judgments, no stakes. [laughs] Okay. Your favourite comfy outfit when you’re just shlepping around at house—at home, excuse me.
KG: I mean, I just love some sweatpants and a t-shirt. You know, they can match, they can not match. It doesn’t really matter. So, if I have company coming over, they’ll match. And if it’s just me, I’m like, whatever I find.
SW: [laughs] I love it.
KG: My, my current thing is I like to have sets. So I have, now I have a lot of sets that are both. You know, sweatshirt—sweatpants and sweatshirts. But also I have, like, summer, I have summer sweats, too.
SW: Summer sweats, I love it. [Kellye chuckles] Summer sweats. Okay. What’s your favourite holiday?
KG: Oh my goodness, I don’t know… I want to say Halloween just because my birthday is in October.
SW: Yeah.
KG: I don’t—I haven’t dressed up in years though. I like, I guess Thanksgiving is good too because we eat.
SW: Yeah. Food.
KG: Yeah.
SW: Yeah. Excellent.
KG: I have, I found a really great mac-and-cheese recipe online [Sandra chuckles] that I’ve been busting out every Thanksgiving the last couple of years, and I tell you that that’s—it’s gone. It’s gone. Like, people eat it. So.
SW: Fantastic. Okay. Favourite tree or favorite flower? [long pause] [laughs] She’s looking at me so funny!
KG:
That’s tricky! I like to buy myself flowers from, like, the grocery store, but I don’t. I guess I don’t have, like, a favorite. I would say orchid, but I kill orchids. [Sandra laughs] So I don’t know… Like, orchid’s not—I’m not their favorite person, but I think orchids are my favorite.
SW: Yeah, exactly. Next time, I’ll ask an orchid their favorite person and they will not say “Kellye Garrett.”
KG: [laughs] They will not say me, no. You know they’re not. I will not be offended. I will not be offended.
SW: Okay. [laughs] Favourite kind of movie or TV to wind down with? You could be specific too if you have one kind, one favourite, or like a genre.
KG: I read about like “lean in” television and “lean out” TV, and so I’m definitely in a “lean out” period. So I love The Floor, which is a game show, and it’s—do you, do you have it in Canada?
SW: We might, but I don’t think I know it.
KG: It’s essentially—it’s so silly—it’s literally a, just one floor and it’s, everyone has their own, almost own little section. And let’s say I, we each have a topic, an expertise topic. So yours might be potatoes and mine might be tarot cards.
SW: Right.
KG: And so they’ll do a randomizer and they pick a person. And then I have to pick someone around me who I want to battle to steal their territory.
SW: Okay. [laughs]
KG:
So I might go, I’m going to take Sandra, I’m going to battle potatoes. And then we go up and Rob Lowe is there [Sandra laughs] and they just show us pictures of different potatoes. We have to be like, “French fry, mash, roasted…” Or you could pass and so then whoever wins, whoever gets the most…
SW: Yeah.
KG:
in whatever the topic before the time goes out, is the winner. And then I will, I then I take over your territory. [Sandra laughs] And let’s say you beat me, I leave and then now your territory is tarot cards. So now you have to defend tarot cards and you might not know anything about them.
SW: Ohhh. Yeah.
KG: It’s a good show. [Sandra laughs] It’s great. It’s a great lean out. If you need a great “lean out” show, it’s a great lean out show.
SW: Okay, so tell us what, what do you mean, lean in, lean out?
KG:
So “lean in” is like a Game of Thrones, where you have to kind of lean in to really pay attention to what’s going on. And “lean out” is when you can kind of, like, lay back on your couch and, like, even be on your phone and be chilling and kind of half pay attention. So it’s not, it’s not a thinking… not that—you have to think watching those shows, I’m not gonna knock them like that. But you know. It just makes it easy. You know, it’s, it’s just to kind of chill out.
SW: Yeah. No, I get it. Okay. Two more. Favourite kind of chocolate.
KG: Like a candy bar or just, like, milk?
SW: Whatever your answer.
KG: I like a Snickers and a Twix. I would say candy bar. And I guess when it comes to type of chocolate, I like milk chocolate.
SW: Yeah. It’s so funny that that one stumped you. [chuckles]
KG: I mean, it’s very [laughs] So many options.
SW: That’s fair, that’s fair. Okay. And the last one, a favourite or your favourite word.
KG: [long pause] Can I curse?
SW: Yeah.
KG:
Then, “fuck.” I love “fuck.” [Sandra cracks up] I love cursing. I can—when I was little, my brother and I, because he was my little brother, we’d go into a room, we’d be like, you could curse as much as you want in this room. And we’d just be cursing, cursing, cursing. And then we would leave.
SW: Yeah.
KG:
And one of my earliest memories of my dad, he was accepting an award, and he said, the first thing he said was like, they told me, I can’t curse. And of course I was like. And then he started cursing. [Sandra laughs] And I was like, yeah, so I’m second, third generation. My mother loves cursing. I’m like, third generation cursing, curser. So. And my niece and nephew, they’re eleven, they already love cursing, too.
SW: [chuckling] They already, yeah. Okay. You know what? And that is a good word because it’s kind of an all-purpose word.
KG: [laughing] Yes, it is. It could be this, it could be that.
SW: Excellent! [laughs] What a great choice.
KG: Thank you.
SW: What a wonderful choice, Kellye Garrett.
KG: I had, I had to end it strong after the chocolate.
SW: Yeah. [cracks up; Kelly chuckles] Thank you so much, though, Kellye, for joining me today.
KG: Thank you for, for asking me to do this again and letting me do it even though tarot was already kind of done.
SW: Oh! You know what? It’s about the joy [Kellye chuckles] not about the geek-out, as I’ve said. And so I’m really, really pleased and kind of honoured that you would share about your passion and your joy with us.
KG: Of course.
SW: So I thank you so much for that.
KG: You’re welcome. So yeah, hopefully everyone else, maybe now will go and look at some tarot cards.
SW:
Yes. [laughs] Okay, so friends, as always I will have all the relevant show notes that I can—all the relevant links, excuse me, in the show notes, all the links that I can find. So thank you for joining us, lovelies, as always. We will meet up again soon. And in the meantime, create joy for yourself and others, however works for you, because we contain multitudes.
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SW: We Contain Multitudes is on The Incomparable network of smart and funny pop culture podcasts where members can access exclusive podcasts and a wonderful community. Find out more at theincomparable.com.
Special thanks, as always, to Erika Ensign, our editrix extraordinaire of Castria Communications. Award-winning excellence in podcast production and media solutions. Check them out at wearecastria.com.
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SHOW NOTES:
Kellye’s website
Left Coast Crime
Mia Manansala
Sharman-Caselli Deck
Rider Waite Smith Deck (Atlas Obscura, 2015)
Pamela Colman Smith
Crystal Visions Deck
So Below, Book of Shadows Vol. 2 Deck
What’s the difference between Tarot and Oracle Cards?
Kaleidadope Deck
The Black Femme Tarot
Tarot of Oneness
The Doodle Tarot
Julie Hennrikus
The Goddess Tarot by Kris Waldherr
Yasmin Angoe
Crime Writers of Color
Crime Writers of Color 2024 David Thompson Special Service Award