In addition to being a reader fan, I’ve long admired Courtney for taking an unwavering stand for what’s right, in many different ways. It was so fun to chat with her about (slightly) less serious things.
As usual, this transcript reflects as faithfully as possible the content and tone of our conversation, with some thoughtful editing to make sure things read smoothly.
Show notes are included after this transcript. Find our conversation on The Incomparable. https://www.theincomparable.com/multitudes/16/
[jazzy jumpin’ trumpet music]
Sandra Wong: Hello. Welcome, everybody. This is We Contain Multitudes, the casual interview show with our favourite people, famous and accomplished guests who share the geek-outs, hobbies, and interests which they might not necessarily be known for. C’est moi. I am your host, Sandra Wong. Oh my gosh, today I am so excited. I have the pleasure of being joined by Courtney Milan. Hi, Courtney.
Courtney Milan: Hi. I’m so excited to be here.
SW: Yay!
CM: Because I contain multitudes. Just like all of us.
SW: Yes, exactly. So wonderful. Okay, so I’m certain, I’m absolutely certain I am not alone in admiring Courtney Milan. Okay, I forgot to warn you, Courtney. This is when I esteem you. So fair warning. Cover your ears if you have to.
CM: Okay, okay. I’m la la la la la la la la la la la la la.
SW: [laughing]
Okay, so as I was saying, friends, I admire Courtney Milan for her smart, sexy and entertaining novels. They’re so good. I admire Courtney from a healthy parasocial distance, obviously, for her many incredibly educational and patient threads and interactions on social media, even, maybe especially, in the face of people being annoyingly obtuse with her. I admire that she saw a gap that needed bridging and did the things most of us have no idea how to do in order to get the dinosaur emoji for us all to enjoy. Thank you so much for that, Courtney. [laughs] Okay, so there are so many other reasons and I could go on and on and on, but I just want to say, most of all, I admire Courtney for holding the courage of her convictions. See Romancing the Vote and the Whistle Crew, among other very public movements. And I also admire her for her wit and intelligence in speaking truth to power. Right? We all know how cheap talk is, so it’s really refreshing and inspiring to watch someone strive to do the right thing, especially when it’s hard. Okay, you can—okay, uncover your ears. I’m making that motion. Uncover your ears now.
CM: Cool.
SW: Great.
CM: Cool.
SW: Yeah, it’s, it’s really such an honour to have you here with us today, Courtney. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
CM: Thank you so much for having me.
SW: Okay. So let’s tell our friends of the podcast, what are we going to talk about today?
CM: I’m going to be talking about building space that works with my brain.
SW: Wow. Okay.
CM: And this is something that I’ve been thinking about for a while because I’ve been trying to do it sort of like more or less, you know, strategically, for a while. And that means that I’ve been failing because my brain is so annoying. [Sandra laughs] But also succeeding in some ways.
SW: Yeah.
CM: And then trying to figure out why it’s succeeding and what this tells me about my brain, and then iterating and discovering what else I need to do.
SW: Okay. So of course, the first thing we need to talk about is your brain.
CM: Yeah, my brain.
SW: What is it about your brain? Why is this, why is this, like, ongoing thing with your brain happening?
CM: Okay, so my brain is very annoying. [Sandra cracks up] So there is, so I think I’ve talked pretty openly about the ADHD online.
SW: Yep.
CM:
This is something that I was diagnosed with, like, three years ago. Although I was pretty sure I had it, like, more than three years ago, like five years ago. But I went through a long period where I was just like, you know, my family’s weird, I’m weird. Why am I so lazy about things? I don’t know, right? And I, there was actually a long period where Bree—who is a good friend of mine and who is half of Kit Rocha—was like, sending me all these, like, podcasts and links to stuff. It’s like, well, I know you don’t have ADHD, but this might be helpful to you.
SW: [laughing] Right.
CM: And like, I did not get the hint for a very long time. And at one point, I wrote a novella who had a character who was like, ha ha this is my brain ramped up to 11 and I got like so many responses being like, oh my gosh, I’ve never seen someone portray ADHD so well in a book. And I’m like, what the heck? [Sandra laughs] Oh my God. Okay, maybe I need to think about this a little bit more.
SW: Yeah. What’s the title of that novella?
CM: It’s called The Pursuit of…
SW: Okay, yeah.
CM: And it’s a loving story about two men, some cheese, and the Declaration of Independence.
SW: Right. As one does. Yeah. Yeah, totally get that. Actually, I didn’t know that you had only been recently—because that’s still not very long ago, three years—
CM: It’s not.
SW: —that you’d only been recently diagnosed. I thought you had known for a lot longer.
CM: No. No clue. Absolutely none.
SW: Right.
CM: I think in many ways, I have the kind of ADHD that when women have it, they, like, never really understand it. I also think that— So like, this is where we get into my brain. So I have the ADHD, right?
SW: Yup.
CM: And then sort of like, as a counterbalancing factor, I am wildly interested in everything, right?
SW: [laughing] Okay.
CM: And so you know, like with ADHD, it’s difficult to do things that you don’t find interesting. I can get super excited about some really boring and mundane shit [Sandra laughs] for a space of time, and then I get bored of it, and then I’m like, never again.
SW: Right.
CM: I do not, my brain cannot tolerate it any longer. Begone. And so, you know, it’s one of those things where it’s like, luckily, my period of interest is long enough that it has allowed me to be relatively successful in some things.
SW: Okay.
CM: And so that meant that I didn’t have to get diagnosed until, like, I had been doing the same thing for long enough, it was like, oh, God, what is wrong with me? It’s not that I don’t think I enjoy this, it’s just—whatever.
SW: Right.
CM: Right, so that’s one aspect of my brain. I’m wildly interested in everything. I love learning new things. I love talking to people who are like, totally into whatever it is that they’re talking about. Like, one of the great joys of life is to find something who is—find someone who is super duper into something I’ve never heard of.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Right?
SW: Yeah. So you have actually described—that is me. [laughs] That is why I have this show. Because I am like, I’m curious about everything. Anything. Everything, kind of. And I’d just like to know… I love learning about new things, but I also love that part when people who are really into something just, like, share.
CM: Right.
SW: Right?
CM: So, so this means that I can be very, very good at school if I am into what I’m doing.
SW: Yeah.
CM: And so that means I’m not going to get diagnosed. It means I’m going to have a lot of markers of success that people say, oh, well, that’s—obviously you don’t have ADHD because blah blah, blah, blah, blah. Right?
SW: Yeah.
CM: So that’s part of it.
SW: Okay.
CM: So there’s the ADHD part. And one of the things about having ADHD is that there’s a thing that happens for people sometimes, which is that if something is not right in front of you, it disappears. Okay?
SW: Yeah, I’ve heard of that. Yes.
CM: And so there are some things that people with ADHD start doing as coping mechanisms, and they don’t realize they’re coping mechanisms. As an example of something that I do…
SW: Yeah
CM: Because I have ADHD that I didn’t understand why I was doing it for like, most of my life. If I get a piece of mail and it’s important, I will leave it on, like, the coffee table.
SW: Uh-huh.
CM: Right? And I do that because if I put it anywhere else, it disappears and I don’t know it’s there.
SW: Right.
CM: Right? And so the coffee table then becomes my to-do list. And if I’m not doing super well, my to-do list becomes like this thick [imagine Courtney motioning a six-inch stack] and everything’s a gigantic mess.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Right?
SW: Yeah, yeah.
CM: So that is one of the hazards of ADHD, is that things only exist when you can see them.
SW: Right.
CM: And, and so you leave everything out and everything gets super messy.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Right? So that’s the one side of my brain, the side of my brain, where everything must be open. I must be able to see everything. If I can’t see it, it doesn’t exist, right?
SW: Right. Okay.
CM: Unfortunately, that’s not all there is to my brain. [Sandra chuckles] Because my brain doesn’t like things simple, right? So, like, this is not diagnosed. I don’t want to use, I’m not sure what words to use here. I will say that there are certain parts of the autism spectrum that I highly relate to.
SW: Right.
CM: And one of those things is that I get very overstimulated, very easily, like noise too loud? My brain, like, starts turning into, like, a cucumber.
SW: Right. [laughs]
CM: I don’t know if you know what that means, but, like—
SW: I do. [laughs]
CM: —sort of like, you know?
SW: I do.
CM: Sort of, like, cold and squishy and sort of like, you can poke holes in it, and it’s very watery.
SW: [laughing] Right.
CM: Totally. My brain, and you’re just like, you’re just like, sitting there in a very loud room, and everyone else is like, I’m having a great time! And you’re like [shaky voice] I don’t know what anything is. I’m not sure. I need to go hide. Right?
SW: Yeah.
CM: So I get very overstimulated. I get—especially by noise, but also visually overstimulated.
SW: Right.
CM: Right? And now you can see that my brain does not love me. Because the thing my brain needs me to do is have everything out in the open. But if everything is out in the open, I get overstimulated.
SW: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
CM: So one of the things, and it has, it has taken me— This is like, me discovering that this is true about me has taken me decades to understand.
SW: Right.
CM:
And it’s like, oh, that’s what happens here. And so I go through these, these cycles where I keep trying new things. It’s like, I’m going to rearrange my office and this is going to fix it, and I’m going to do this, I’m going to do this, I’m going to try this, I’m going to try all of these things. And this will be the magic thing that makes it stick, right? And for a while there, I was like, there is no magic. I just need to keep rearranging things because my brain is demanding new things because ADHD. But I actually discovered that this is not true.
SW: Yeah.
CM: That I don’t have to keep rearranging things. That there is a potential magic in which all of my needs are met.
SW: Okay.
CM: And that is the thing that I am thinking about right now. Trying to figure out how to make things work. And I discovered this kind of by accident, right? So the way I discovered it— So I think, you know that I’m super into tea. In fact, you were probably like, Courtney’s going to talk about tea because she’s such a geek about it. [Sandra laughs] But no, I figured that would be too obvious.
SW: [laughing] Too obvious, yeah.
CM: I talk about tea all the time.
SW: [laughing] Yeah. And by the way, by the way, friends, I—Courtney has a weekly newsletter. And I subscribe and it’s great. So if you, if you, I’ll have the links for it for you. But it’s really great.
CM: Yeah.
SW: So I was like, maybe she’ll talk about tea, maybe she won’t. Because everyone knows about your tea obsession and expertise, so…
CM:
Yeah. So anyway, I am totally obsessed by tea. I have more tea than any human being has a right to have. [Sandra chuckles] Like, there’s, there’s a part of my brain—so this is, this is brain and storage, but my brain is like, global warming is going to destroy tea. It already kind of is making inroads. And, I don’t know how long I’m going to live, but I’m not going to run out of tea. Right? [Sandra chuckles] And so, like, [chuckles] so, like there’s a part of me that’s like, what I really need to do is hoard tea. [Sandra laughs] Like, I’m not going to hoard anything that’s like life-saving or whatever, but I am going to hoard like cakes of raw pu-erh, which ages really well, so that I’m going to have tea throughout my entire life. Right?
SW: [laughing] Yeah.
CM: And so that’s, that’s kind of where my brain is on this. And that’s not super helpful, brain. [Sandra laughs] But unfortunately, I probably have enough tea for like, 20 years at this point.
SW: Wow.
CM: And since I’m, I’m 50 and will probably live past 70, my brain’s like, no reason to stop now! [both crack up]
SW: Well, you did—okay, so the tea that you mentioned, I would know in Cantonese as boh-lei. So that is a great tea to keep around for people who don’t, who aren’t familiar with it because it, it gets better as it ages.
CM: Correct, yeah.
SW: Although I think some, I didn’t know there were so many varieties until I started reading your newsletter. So thank you for that, Courtney. But also, like, there are some that probably there’s past a certain time where they’re not so great, they age too much.
CM: That’s true.
SW: And that’s—
CM: That’s 100% true.
SW: Part of the joy is discovering [laughs] Maybe part of the joy for you will be discovering when that happens for each one.
CM: Yeah, we’ll see about that.
SW: Okay. So your obsession with tea is one of the ways…
CM: So my obsession with tea is one of the things…so this is what happens, right?
SW: Yeah.
CM: So okay, there’s another part of my brain that’s like, I’m never allowed to run out of anything.
SW: Ah.
CM: That’s just childhood…deprivation trauma. Like, the normal stuff that happens when your parents are not super wealthy and they have seven kids. And every once in a while, weird things happen at work, and your dad doesn’t get paid for three months, you know, like, yeah, as one does, right?
SW: Yep.
CM: You know, so I’ve got this. I’ve got this little like, you know, oh crap, we might run out thing. So, you know, all of these things combine in very interesting ways. And it’s like [long pause] you know, sometimes I’m like, I should simply be reasonable about all of this. [Sandra laughs] And now, I mean, like, it’s my brain. I’m not going to, it’s just not going to do that.
SW: Right.
CM: And so I have to figure out how to be, how to accommodate my actual self and not like, some hypothetical reasonable person who is not me, right?
SW: Right.
CM: Okay. So anyway, one of the things that I have had an issue with—I haven’t even gotten to the thing that I was talking about—one of the things I’ve had an issue with in the past is my teacup and teapot collection. Because as you can imagine, if you like tea, you also like having a lot of tea cups, etc. etc. and so forth. And there’s a point where I had this, like, rickety shelf in the kitchen that we were always constantly afraid that the dog would run into and knock everything off and break everything. But he never did because he was the world’s best dog.
SW: He was. This is Pele, friends.
CM: This is Pele, who’s the world’s best dog. Never, ever—even at the very end of his life, when he had multiple seizures and couldn’t control what he was doing, never, ever knocked off my tea things. Truly the best boy.
SW: Yeah.
CM: [pausing] My God, you can tell I have ADHD just by talking, can’t you? I can’t get to the point! [laughs]
SW: [laughing]
No, no, it’s not like that. So I just want to say to you, okay [Courtney laughs] I do have, I do have family members very close to me who, you know, some are adults, some are younger. Some are newly diagnosed, some are undiagnosed. But I, we really strive to be like, it’s just the way that you are. It’s not like… You know, like, so I understand like, how you said you can tell I have ADHD because I can’t stay on topic. And I’m like, yeah, but so? It’s totally fine.
CM: Yeah.
SW: It’s totally fine. Right?
CM: Yeah.
SW: So I love, I’m loving this conversation. [laughing] I actually don’t really, I mean, we don’t really have like a, you know, we’re going to get to what you want to talk about. But I think all of this is relevant and all of it’s important. So yeah, don’t worry about me. [laughs] I’m enjoying this, yeah.
CM: In any event. So one of the things that happened was, I was like, I need the tea storage to end all tea storages, of tea cup storage. Right?
SW: Yup.
CM: Yeah. And so I thought for like, years about what this would look like. And the thing I came up with is, there’s like, my house isn’t huge.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Okay? It’s a decent size, but it’s not huge. And there isn’t a lot of room for like, 70,000 tea things, [Sandra laughs] especially not in the kitchen, since I also have 10 million kitchen gadgets. So the solution I came up with is that, I was going to knock the wallboard out and build shelves into the wall. And so…that is something I’ve never done.
SW: Yep.
CM: And so I did it.
SW: Yep. [laughs]
CM: I got a, you know, I got the, like, I’m blanking on the word…
SW: The sledge hammer?
CM: Sledge hammer, thank you. Got the sledge hammer, banged out the wallboard.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Started cutting studs. Cool, fun stuff. [laughs]
SW: Wow.
CM: And I built a tea shelf for myself. And I had planned it for, like, so long that it was like, you know, it was like, there’s a tile backsplash. There’s like, you know, lighting that lights up, like, indirectly behind the teacups.
SW: And it’s beautiful. I’ve seen the photos. Yeah.
CM: Yeah. It’s, it’s beautiful. And the thing that this does, it gives me… Like, everything is out so I can see it. And it’s so pretty that it fires all the dopamine receptors in my brain every single time I look at it, and it’s been like, years now. Every single time I look at it, I’m like, aww man, this is my teacups.
SW: Yeah.
CM: It’s so beautiful. I love it! Right? And that is the point when I realized that, like, my, my various tendencies, like my collectionist tendency, like, I can’t run out!, and my I need to have it in the open. And also I don’t want to be overstimulated tendency.
SW: Right.
CM: The way all of these things are satisfied is by having really, really beautiful storage.
SW: Yeah. There [laughs] there you go.
CM: And so I was like, Great, now all I have to do is make everything beautiful. And it’s like, well, fuck [Sandra laughs] not everything is beautiful, right?
SW: Well, no. It’s true. Yeah, yeah. But, like, the thing to remember, I think the thing to point out here is, is like, getting a bead on yourself, like, knowing what works for you, what doesn’t work for you. And that’s really important. So, like, setting aside all the, this is how I should be, this is the way I should think.
CM: Right.
SW: This is the way I should approach…
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: You just get rid of all the shoulds and the should-ing and then just really like, you know, figure out what works for you, what doesn’t, and what you like, what you don’t like. So therefore we—you know you like beautiful storage…
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: That’s great.
CM: So, I now have little wall shelves in the bathroom…
SW: Yeah.
CM: Where I put, like, my face stuff. And similarly there, I used to have a real problem getting, like, way too much face stuff [Sandra laughs] and spilling everywhere and blah, blah, blah.
SW: Yeah
CM: And I’m not saying, I’m not, I’m 100% not saying that it never goes in the wrong place, but it has massively solved my I’m going to buy all this face goop issue. It’s like, well, there’s no space for that in my wall, so I’m not getting it.
SW: Yeah. So you did the same, did you do the same thing in the bathroom? So you knocked out the the front facing—
CM: We actually were redoing the bathroom for other reasons. And so somebody else did it, which is the best way to have it done [Sandra laughs] since we already had somebody coming in to like, you know, take out our tub and, you know, whatever. So somebody else did it, so I didn’t have to.
SW: Yes. Nice.
CM: But, yes, the same thing was done [chuckling] although not by me. Me doing it the first time, I was like, oh, that was a lot.
SW: Yeah, it—
CM: So—
SW: I can’t believe you did that whole shelf, that whole tea thing shelf yourself.
CM: Yeah, it took forever and honestly, I [laughing] I thought I would be able to do it in like, a weekend. My husband was going to be gone for one of his ridiculous race things. And I was like, when he comes back, it’ll be all better. And then when he got back, there was like, a fine layer of drywall dust everywhere. [Sandra laughs] And I, oh my God, it was so bad. [laughs]
SW: How long did it actually take you to finish that?
CM: Like a month.
SW: Yeah. Wow. [both laugh] You know, that’s just how it goes sometimes.
CM:
Yeah, I know, I mean, like, part of it is that, like, I just didn’t think about the fact that if you are drywalling, you have to wait for everything to, like, the drywall compound to actually dry. And it, it does not do that on your schedule. It’s like, ahhh, just gonna sit here being wet for the next 27 hours. You’re like, come on, I want to sand you! [both laugh] So yeah, it took me, it took me about a month to do that. So.
SW: But every time you look at it, you know it was worth it.
CM:
Yeah. So I’ve been thinking about this in a lot of context because… So, about a, about 6 or 7 months ago, I was like, I’m going to make my office really, really work, right? And I had this plan for how to make it work. It’s actually one of the reasons I got a 3D printer in the first place, which is how, which led to me making whistles, etc. etc. and so forth. But I was going to like, do all this stuff with my office. I was going to print wall storage, blah blah blah. I did. I printed wall storage. I put it up and immediately my brain was like [tortured voice] Ohhhhh nooooo, I can’t.
SW: Oh, really?
CM: Yeah. Immediately.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Immediately. And I was, it was going to be like, colorful and rainbow. My brain was like, nope, nope, nope. So I was like, okay, fine, fine, fine, limited color palette. So I took down some of the stuff that I put up that was in bright colors, and I did it all in sort of like, you know, calming greens and blues. Nope, nope. My brain was like, this thing on the wall is repetitive and utilitarian and I don’t like it.
SW: Ah.
CM: And okay, so here’s the thing. I put it up on the wall, I have not been able to work in my office since then. I keep going out into the kitchen because I can’t do anything here because I keep looking at it. My brain’s like, what are you doing to me? [makes exaggerated pained noises]
SW: Yeah, really? Okay.
CM:
Right. And it’s so, so it’s very interesting. Like, I had this whole thing planned, it was going to feel like beautiful, blah blah blah. And now I’m just like, wait a second. Okay…clearly I’m doing something wrong here, right? Because not only does it have to look a certain way, it has to make my brain feel a certain way too? [Sandra laughs] Okay, okay, okay. Right? I also have beneath it, like, three wall, three layers of like, filament storage for my 3D printer.
SW: Right.
CM: And so, like, there’s this riot of rainbow color beneath it.
SW: Yeah.
CM: No, my brain’s like, absolutely not. You may not. Even if I put them in order, my brain’s like, nope, nope, nope. We do not do that. That is not allowed. We reject it in its entirety. So…
SW: Yeah.
CM: So, the current thing that’s happening in my office, it’s hilarious that— So, I got this great idea that I was going to, like, rearrange everything and, like, put in a workbench and all this stuff, and it was going to fix it, and it made it so much worse. [Sandra laughs] Right? So like, you are currently looking at the only view of my office that actually looks remotely accessible. If I turned this around…
SW: Right.
CM: I don’t know if I should do that, do you want me to do that?
SW: [laughing] Do it, do it! Do it.
CM: Okay.
SW: Please. [pause] Oh! [cracks up]
CM: Okay. [laughs] Here is the computer.
SW: Ohh. [laughing] Ohhhh.
CM: And then, there’s all the stuff down there. Oh, my God—
SW: Wow.
CM: It’s so bad. It’s so bad.
SW: Yeah.
CM: You see, that’s why I—you said it and I started laughing. I was like, Oh my God.
SW: Yes! [laughing] Now I know why.
CM: Like, I know, and like, I could actually, like, turn it this way. And you can see that my closet’s like a total disaster, too.
SW: Welllll…
CM: I have, I have literally this…four-foot span for…
SW: [cracking up] Right behind you, that looks great.
CM: for a Zoom background. And it’s the only part of the office that actually looks acceptable. And it’s just because I know I need, if I, if I’m on Zoom, it needs to not be a total disaster.
SW: Right. [laughs]
CM: So right now, the thing that my brain is in, the mode my brain is in is, it’s like, okay, I have to figure out what’s going on here.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Right? And so I’ve tried to figure out what the rules are behind what my brain needs. And one of the the rules I’ve come up with is, whitespace.
SW: Mm-mm.
CM: I need a lot more whitespace than I’ve given myself.
SW: Uh-huh. Yeah.
CM: Right? And then, okay, so actually, I have this here. I actually got this book from Romancing the Vote, Discover Your Creative Ecosystem. And I am super enjoying this. This is by Sarah Shotts. And I am super enjoying this because it’s making me ask questions about where I am right now, in language that I don’t normally think about.
SW: Okay.
CM: So I have been thinking about…the brain’s need for whitespace. And I, this has led me to a lot of thoughts about how my brain works and how my brain doesn’t work. Right? And I think that a good way to put this is, when I’m thinking about things, my brain needs whitespace in a lot of different ways.
SW: Mm-hm.
CM: Right? It needs…places where there is nothing expected of me.
SW: Okay.
CM: Right? So…I don’t know how to describe that, whatever…
SW: Do you mean, when you say whitespace, do you mean like, blankness?
CM: Blankness, literal blank—places where there is nothing, right?
SW: Okay.
CM: Like, so this shelf that’s behind me…
SW: Yeah.
CM: Like, it would not work if I had another shelf directly above it…
SW: Yeah.
CM: that was equally filled with things.
SW: Yep.
CM: It only feels right to me because I have all of this expanse around it, and that allows me to concentrate on the stuff that is there.
SW: Yeah, that makes sense.
CM: Right?
SW: Yeah.
CM: And so that’s one of the first principles that I need. I need whitespace.
SW: Yeah.
CM: The second principle that I need is both structure and the lack of structure.
SW: Uhhh, okay.
CM: I know, yeah.
SW: [laughing] Very zen.
CM: No, it sounds… So here’s the thing. I have to be able to know where things are. But on the other hand…it needs to not feel like it’s a warehouse.
SW: Yeah. Yep.
CM: Okay. So, so I think there’s a tendency to be like, okay storage, if I’m trying to, to maximize storage, and fit as much as I can on there, I can do it in x, y and z way.
SW: Yeah.
CM: But I actually need to not do that.
SW: I totally get that.
CM: Right?
SW: Yeah, I totally get that.
CM: And it’s like, and it’s like, I’m so used to the concept of if you have a shelf, then not only are you cramming it with books, you’re putting books on top, you’re putting books behind, your books are double stacked. Because what I mean, like, there’s never enough room for books in the house, right?
SW: No. [laughing] Never.
CM: Right? And yet, as soon as I do that, then it’s like all the books disappear because I can’t look at them without my brain melting.
SW: Yeah, it’s become invisible.
CM: Not only just invisible. It’s like there’s a force field around it that repels me, right?
SW: [laughing] Right.
CM: So I’ve been thinking about this. So the other, the other thing that I’ve done where I feel like I’ve actually made something that works, is my garden outside, right?
SW: Right. Yeah.
CM: So I have built a garden. And one of the things that I did when I set it up was, I was like, I could make all these boxes that are all sort of like, in rows, but my brain does not want me to do that. Right? And so I have explicitly set it up so that everything… [chuckling] Nothing is pointing in the same direction as anything else. At least I mean, that’s not true. There are things that are parallel or perpendicular to each other…
SW: Right.
CM: but it’s like, I don’t have like row, row, row of raised garden beds. I have like, L shapes and the L shapes don’t line up with each other. They’re kind of like, arranged in a way that you’re never going to encounter the same set of things more than once.
SW: Yeah.
CM:
So I’ve been thinking about this and it’s like, what is it that I’m looking for and why does this work? It’s like—and in some ways, I’ve been thinking about how this actually correlates with what makes good writing in the first place, right? Because writing is such a weird thing. [Sandra laughs] Right? Okay, so let me give you an example. When people talk about how they recognize that something is written by ChatGPT, there’s a couple of tells that they have, and I’m not going to talk about the stupid em dashes because they stole that from us.
SW: Yes.
CM: I love em dashes too.
SW: Me. too.
CM: Fuck you, AI.
SW: That’s right.
CM: Em dashes are correct usage and the fact that you overuse them does not mean that I have to stop overusing them.
SW: Amen.
CM: Because I love my em dashes. Anyway. But one of the things I talk about is that it just overuses parallel structure.
SW: Mm.
CM: Right? Repeatedly. And it uses the rule of threes again and again and again and again. Right? And these are, these are things that regular writers use. We use parallel structure. It’s a very effective tool. The rule of threes is a very effective tool. If you constantly use it, it stops being effective.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Then it’s just the same. Everything’s the same—
SW: Yeah.
CM: —same same same same same. Right? And it’s like, if you think about it, good writing also has whitespace in it.
SW: Yep.
CM: And good writing has variation of tone and structure and all of these things. And you know, it kind of dawned on me at one point that the thing I’m looking for in the spaces that I’m around…
SW: Yeah.
CM: Is precisely like writing. It is precisely like fiction. The thing that I’m looking for is that thing that has both parallel structure but variation in tone. The thing that is expected, expected, and then it surprises you. The thing that is both beautiful but also, you know, changing.
SW: Yeah.
CM: And that is the thing that my brain really, really is going for. And so I have been thinking about how to restructure my office at this point. And the thing I’m thinking about it is, now, is not how do I fit all these things?
SW: Yeah.
CM: Because that was my question before. It’s like, I have so many things and where am I going to put them all? Wrong question.
SW: Right. Yeah.
CM: The correct question is, how many things can I fit beautifully in this office?
SW: Bingo. Yeah, which sounds like. Oh, yeah, of course, but it’s not [chuckles] I mean, it took a lot of work to get there for you.
CM: Yeah.
SW: Clearly.
CM: And—okay, I can go on from there [Sandra laughs] to other things, but I’m going to, I’m going to leave you space to ask questions or make comments or anything.
SW: Yeah, yeah, well thank you. I was just going to, I was just struck by—so… Because, as I mentioned, I have close family members who are, you know, learning to live with their ADHD, and I, of course, have done, I’ve done my own research. But like, seriously, I have… It just seems like there’s like a fine line between, you want things stored or organized well enough, but you can’t have too much organization or else it “invisibilizes” everything there. And then—
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: like you say, you can no longer see it. It doesn’t exist and you forget completely about it. So I think that’s, that’s one of the fine lines that I hear you’ve just been talking about and how you’ve come up with, oh, maybe you don’t need to fit all the things.
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: So I think that’s fascinating because like, how do you know? You’re, you’re just going to have to figure it out as you go.
CM: Yeah.
SW: Right? Like, experientially figure out, okay I want to do, to have these things in my office. That’s too many. That doesn’t work. Like, just like you said with your, you printed out storage bins. So you actually—
CM: Mm-hm, wall storage.
SW: —just have to do the thing.
CM: And it seemed like such a great idea because I have so many things and no place to put them, so why not on the wall?
SW:
That’s right. Too much. Too much, too many things. It’s overwhelming. Yeah, I totally get that too. I, as far as I know, I don’t have ADHD. I’m not diagnosed. And like you said earlier, I liked how you put it, there are things about, like, the characteristics of autism that, like, really resonate with me, you know? So I totally get that, that whole thing about being overwhelmed with, with sights, especially moving things and definitely sounds. So I totally understand what you mean about the—mine’s not a cucumber. My brain doesn’t turn cucumberish. It just sort of like, decides, No, I’m out. I’m done.
CM: Mm-hm.
SW:
Yeah. You’re not, I’m not happening for you, sorry, you know? So, I totally get that part and that’s so fascinating. I’ve been working on my office for years and I also have bookshelves in the house. I mean, every writer does, I think.
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: I, there’s like, a stack of books. It’s double stacked, the shelves are double stacked, and
CM: Yep. Yep.
SW: there are like, three stacks, three stacks deep of books in front of it. And it’s just like, so dusty over there, and I’m like, I just can’t see it. Can’t look at it. Can’t see it, you know? Should I do a Little Free Library? Yes! But then that means people will keep giving books to me.
CM: Y-e-e-s! That’s vicious.
SW: And I don’t want that. I want to give them away! [both laugh]
CM: Take a book, no leaving. [both crack up]
SW:
Right? I’ve literally, like, thinking, maybe I should rent out the community league hall and just do a book sale. Like, it’s a book, quote unquote, fire sale. Everything must go, you know [Courtney laughs] and it would be worth it to me, to pay the money to rent the hall just so I can sell my thousand books that I have…not reading, obviously not going to read. But I feel like for me, that comes the closest to this dilemma that you’re talking about. What do you do with all this stuff? You want to keep the stuff. Do I, do I want to keep this stuff? Uhhh I don’t know.
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: Yes. What if I need it? That’s a whole different part of the conversation though, maybe.
CM: Yeah.
SW: Yeah. So how are you gonna, how are you gonna do this? [pause] Oh, she just took a big [cracks up] big breath.
CM: Okay. So one of the things I’m going to do, I have this workbench, I built this workbench. My 3D printer is underneath. It is currently filled with filament and various other sundry boxes and etc., etc.. So that is going to move into my closet.
SW: Okay.
CM: And that will allow me to get it out of the room so that I have more room in this room that is not filled with things. Okay? Now to put it into the closet, I have to take a lot of stuff out of the closet.
SW: [chuckling] It’s like a domino effect. [Sandra laughs]
CM: No, it is. And that requires me to look at the things that are in my closet and say, why is this here?
SW: Exactly.
CM: Do I need this? Because I have, like, do I really need 18 million storage boxes? Like, I have, like, so many mailing boxes at this point.
SW: Oh, yeah. [chuckles]
CM: It’s like, you know, like, this is maybe a job for, like, you know, like the Buy Nothing group on Facebook.
SW: Yeah.
CM: You know, so I have, like, so many things in here, I have so many things in here that are parts of projects that I think I am going to do that I have never done, and that if I really think about it, I’m like, am I ever going to do that? No. I’m not. I did that, I did that because I wanted to, but do I want to do it again? No.
SW: And is that, is that something about your brain too?
CM: Ye-a-h. [Sandra laughs] So like, it’s like, I took, I took class—I went through a period where I learned how to use power tools because I, you know for most of my life, I like, used a power drill and that was it. And then it was like, everything else feels scary. And then I hit a point where I was like, fuck it, I want to learn how to do things.
SW: Yeah. [laughing] Let’s go.
CM: It was like, the beginning of the second Trump administration. I had a time where—okay, so, short embarrassing story. For a very long period of time, we did not have interior door handles on any of our doors. Why?
SW: What? [laughing]
CM: Well, there’s only two of us, see? And so it’s like, and so it’s like, do I really need to, like, lock the door and latch it from anyone? No. Right? It’s not necessary. I mean, the bathroom, the bathroom had it, but, like, not like my office door or whatever.
SW: Right, right. [laughing]
CM: And so, so I hit a period where I… So over the years, I had tried to resolve the problem. Like, I hired someone and the guy showed up and was like, oh, I don’t know how to do that, and he left, and I was like, wait a second! [laughs]
SW: What?!
CM: Excuse me, sir! And then I hired somebody else, and I hired him to do a couple of things, and he said he was going to come back and do this on the second day, and then he never showed up. And I was like—
SW: [laughing] What?
CM: The project from hell, right? And so I was like, fine, I’m going to figure out how to do it myself. So I bought like a, a jig for it. And then that sat for, like, three years because I didn’t really want to do it. And finally I hit a point where I was like, I’m just going to do it. And this was like the very beginning of the second Trump administration. And I did it, and I felt so good afterwards. And I was like, damn, it feels good to actually accomplish something in a world where everything is falling apart.
SW: Yeah.
CM: So I was like, cool, I’m going to learn how to do more things. And so I took a bunch of classes, learned how to use power tools. And consequently, I now have six blocks of wood sitting in my office for the next time I use a wood lathe, which is gonna be never. [laughs]
SW: [laughing] You never know…yeah, no. Yeah, I mean that I think that probably needs to go. Well, is it also that those things have have become invisible for you or they only show up as, as, like, annoyances?
CM: They, they show up when I stub my toe on them. [both crack up]
SW: So, as annoyances, yeah.
CM: Anyway, I’ve been thinking about this a lot, in part because I feel like…there’s this thing that happens to me when I’m in a space like this, right?
SW: Yeah.
CM: And that is, my brain goes into, like, a torpor. You know, it’s like—
SW: Ah-h-h.
CM: It’s like, hard to think where I am. It’s hard to imagine… Everything feels bogged down by everything around me.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Right? And, like, accomplishing anything is hard. I’ve actually known for a while that I hit this point where it’s like, things have gotten so bad that I need to just do nothing but clean up. Otherwise my brain will refuse to function.
SW: Right.
CM: Anyways, so one of the reasons I’m thinking about this is because I feel like, you know, I don’t want to diagnose other people too much, but I am going to diagnose society at large. I think we are all like, as a society, deeply overstimulated.
SW: Yes.
CM: Like.
SW: Oh yeah. [chuckling]
CM: Everything. And I think, I think it’s almost designed that we will be so.
SW: Mm-hm.
CM: Right?
SW: Yep.
CM: It’s like, where is the…where is the whitespace in our lives? Where is, you know, even things like people’s jobs have gotten worse in so many ways. I don’t know how true this is in other countries, for the record, but especially in the United States, like, we have all these people who are like, you know, they used to have jobs or it was understood that you weren’t going to be working the full time you were at work. Right?
SW: Yeah.
CM: And the reason you set it up like that is because, you know, somebody could get sick and you’re going to have to do their job, right? And you don’t want people to be so overloaded that if anything happens or if, like, that one dude quits, that you’re completely, you know, up shit creek.
SW: Mm-hm.
CM: And then somebody was looking at the balance sheets and they’re like, well, you know, people really aren’t working 100% of the time. They’re only working like 70%, 60% to 70% of the time. So that means we can fire 30% of our workforce. Right?
SW: Yup.
CM: And so we started doing that. And now what has happened is people get to work and they don’t have a chance to actually…breathe.
SW: Yeah.
CM: And I don’t actually think that it makes people more productive. I think you can be more productive for like, a week of this.
SW: Right.
CM: And then your brain starts shutting down. Right? And so I think we, oh, so many of us are so overstimulated and in a place where there’s no room to breathe and no room to…to exist, really. And we’re in this permanent state of torpor.
SW: Yeah.
CM: And so when I think about how to combat that, the thing I, you know, there’s a lot of stuff that you could think about, right? Like, obviously it would be nice to have some, like some, like, labor law in this country… [Sandra laughs] A social safety net of some kind or whatever. You know, you’re, you’re in Canada, so you have a little bit more of that.
SW: A tiny bit more, a tiny bit more.
CM: Oh, you have a lot more. You have a lot more. So among other things, if you leave your job, you have health care.
SW: Yeah.
CM: So that’s that’s a huge one.
SW: Yeah. That’s been a big conversation that I’ve been seeing amongst Americans and especially with Canadians… Like, like my friend, Krista Ball, who also lives here in Edmonton.
CM: Uh-huh.
SW: And Krista’s been like, I cannot believe this is how you people have to live with, you know? And that conversation comes up every once in a while, right?
CM: Yeah.
SW: She just had another I think it was just last week. I was reading through all the conversations there in her—
CM: I was—
SW: —in her thread.
CM: I was part of that, that conversation. And, you know, it’s like, the degree to which we have accustomed ourselves to [cracks up] just like, the most insane bullshit.
SW: Yeah.
CM: It’s just like, really, really— That’s what you do.
SW: [laughing] I know!
CM: And she was like, wait a second! Why can somebody who’s not your doctor say that a treatment wasn’t medically necessary after it had happened? And you’re like, well, you see, it would save them money. And she’s like, but so?! [laughs]
SW: Yeah, Exactly, exactly. But I think this speaks to what you’re saying is the, the overstimulation by design, which also lends to people, like, kind of— I have this theory too, that when we are overstressed, we just fall into survival mode. I mean, that’s not, you know, that’s not nothing new. [chuckles] I’m not the, the original thinker of that thought.
CM: Yeah.
SW: But because, because we’re overstimulated by design to fall into survival mode, that means we don’t have that extra what you’ve been calling whitespace or blank space. I call it leeway. I call it free space.
CM: Yeah.
SW: To really like, think strategically. All we are is, like, doing the tactical stuff that needs done so we can keep surviving. I think that’s many, many of us, right? In your country, in my country, in places in Europe, everywhere.
CM: Yeah.
SW: Lots and lots of places. I don’t think that that’s just us two countries in North America. And so we, we [chuckles] we don’t have the space unless it’s our job. Even in our personal lives, there’s overstimulation.
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: That’s one of the things that social media has done is, you know, I’ve just recently started, I’ve just recently stoppedreaching for—like, so I’m on Bluesky. That’s my only social media. I have stopped going there first thing in the morning while I have breakfast and instead…
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: Instead, it’s like, I’m going to read part of a book. Or get this, people, friends of the podcast: I just eat my breakfast and I just think my thoughts. I just sit there, I enjoy my breakfast. I look out the window. I am not reading something. I’m not on my phone. I’m not, I’m not even talking to anyone else because we all have—
CM: Yeah.
SW: —different schedules. I’m just like, enjoying my food and my own company and like, that’s [laughs] That’s been like, strangely revolutionary. I mean, because usually… For many years, I would just get on my phone right away, or if I’m not on social media, I gotta play a game of some kind.
CM: Mm-hm, yeah.
SW: And that is because we’re feeding that loop, that sort of negative feedback loop, really. It’s positive in that we’ve got the dopamine, but it’s really negative in the bigger picture. As I say, we’re not looking at the bigger picture because we’re too busy just trying to survive.
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: Yeah. Anyway, that’s my philosophy, friends. You did not know you were showing up for a philosophical discussion, but here we are.
CM: Right. But so, one of the things I wanted to say is, I feel like one of the implications of where I am right now is that I’m beginning to think that…beauty, public beauty, is an answer to fascism.
SW: Yes.
CM: It is not…because I feel like so much of where, what people are in at this point, I look around and it’s like, a lot of people just, they don’t have that space, they don’t have that thing in their brain. And so public beauty may not feel like it’s a logical answer to a lot of what we’re seeing, but it is an answer.
SW: Yeah, yeah.
CM: And so I’ve been thinking about what that looks like, what that means.
SW: Right.
CM: You know, and how you fight some of this stuff. And it’s like, you know, public beauty and, like, enforce public whitespace.
SW: Mm-hm.
CM:
And you might say, what does enforce public whitespace look like? I’m using this word “whitespace” in a way that’s I think is nontraditional. So I apologize for that. But like, one of the things that I believe, especially in the United States, is that we should get rid of a lot of parking lots. Now, I’m not saying get rid of parking altogether because I think we need parking. And especially I think that when we get rid of parking, we need to preserve and increase the amount of parking for people with disabilities who need it. And I say this as someone who’s mom is deeply disabled. Like, she deserves to be part of public life, and so does everyone else who is.
SW: Mm-hm.
CM: Right? But I think it should be difficult to drive as much as it is.
SW: Yeah.
CM: As we do. And I think that we should be turning more parking lots into parks.
SW: Yeah. Right.
CM: And that doesn’t sound like it’s an answer to fascism, but I feel like it is.
SW: Right.
CM: Right? Like, I think people having to take a walk and employers not having a choice about their employees having to take a walk, like, that’s what I want.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Right? I want employers to be like, oh yeah, well, you’re going to have to, you know, you’re going to have to walk home, so I can’t keep you until it’s nine at night.
SW: Right.
CM: Right? Like, the car allows employers to abuse their employees because then they’re like, I don’t care if it’s—you’re just going to drive home. So I don’t have to think about your safety. Right? Like, don’t—if people aren’t driving…
SW: [chuckling] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and too, the idea of like, public beauty… So it could be like, maybe let’s not just have Brutalism be our guiding principle [chuckles]
CM: Yeah, right?
SW: …building our cities.
CM: Right?
SW: But it just allows our brains… I think it allows our brains to, to create that space for us, right?
CM: Yeah.
SW: That free, that free space around all of our
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: our personal concerns. And then, I think too, interestingly, you know, when you say public beauty, then that becomes a communal, it can be a communal experience, right?
CM: Yes.
SW: Which helps build our feelings of community and being related to one another. And I think that is a part that speaks directly to fighting fascism, right? It’s that relatedness, the community, the communal experience of something positive and beautiful? I mean…
CM: Yep.
SW: Right?
CM: Yep, yep.
SW: Yeah. So then—
CM: So, so—
SW: Yeah. Go ahead.
CM: No, I— Go ahead. [both laugh]
SW: So then I’m thinking like, you know, this is all coming from you thinking, what am I going to do with my office? [laughs]
CM: Yeah. That’s right. Why is my brain in this weird mode right now? Why is my brain dysfunctional in the moment?
SW: Yeah.
CM: Right? That’s where, that’s where all of this comes from.
SW: Yeah. And that, and what you’ve been sharing with us, you know, so generously and honestly, is like, your particular flavour of…
CM: Yeah.
SW: …what all of this world around us is doing to your brain.
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: Yeah. So tell me, what is the, what is the first thing you’re going to do? The next step for you in your office?
CM: Okay. So the first, the first thing I have to do is solve my filament problem. [Sandra cracks up] So I got this 3D printer—
SW: Yeah. [laughing] Friends—
CM: I got this 3D printer so I could print storage—
SW: —there are spools. There are spools and spools and spools of filament. Spools upon spools upon—
CM: Sandra.
SW: —spools.
CM: You see those two black things…right there?
SW: Yes.
CM: Those are filled with filament. And there’s still filament here. And and and I have printed…I don’t know, I don’t know if you can see this at this point. I have this filament wall printed. [Sandra laughs in disbelief] There is.
SW: Wow.
CM: I have so much filament in this office, it’s not even funny.
SW: Okay, so I can [laughs] I can see this now. Yes. Go ahead. [cracks up]
CM: So unfortunately, one of the things I discovered when you get a 3D printer is that you’re like, you know what? I need more filament. Because there’s always a different—that one’s not shiny. Oh, but that one’s not sparkly. I need a sparkly pink. This one’s just a shiny pink. And the next thing you know…[Sandra cracks up] Surrounded. Surrounded by filament.
SW: Right.
CM: Filament and more filament. Filament to end all filament. And you’re like, wait a second. This is…too much filament.
SW: That’s right. So you were saying about your closet. You have to figure out what are the things you actually need. How are you going to decide that with your filament? [pause] [cracks up] Oh the look she’s giving me!
CM: Okay. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. I just I just gave her the look that’s like, the look of: Okay, you don’t understand how bad a problem this is. [Sandra laughs] So. Okay, so one of the other things I got from the periods of deprivation is my ability to throw things out is, like, so bad.
SW: Yeah, right.
CM: So some of this filament is just going to have to be turned into whistles, like…
SW: Yeah.
CM: You know.
SW: Excellent.
CM: It’s going to be a… We’re just, I need to print more whistles much faster.
SW: Mm-hm. Excellent.
CM: Some of the filament will be given to friends, who will turn it into whistles.
SW: Yeah. [Courtney chuckles] Yep. Great.
CM: So that will be some of it. And then I think I have to have an honest conversation with myself about what I’m printing, what I’m actually going to be printing..?
SW: Right.
CM: And what I think I’m going to be printing? And so, like, really just be honest, which is hard because I’m not often honest with myself about what I’m going to do in the future.
SW: Right. [laughs]
CM: Like, I have, like, my… Heidi, Heidi invents tasks for future-Heidi. And so one of the things, all the time… Future-Heidi can do anything. Present-Heidi doesn’t want to do shit. [both laugh] Future-Heidi is on top of things and she’s going to handle it, right? And then I get there and I’m like, oh, that’s a job for Next-Future-Heidi. [chuckles] Right?
SW: Yeah.
CM: And so I need to actually ask myself questions like, would I do this tomorrow? And if the answer is no, I feel a feeling of faint sinking dread, then I need to realize that I’m just not going to do it.
SW: Yeah.
CM: At all.
SW: Yeah yeah yeah.
CM: That this is not a task to assign to any version of future-Heidi. It is a task to assign to no version of Heidi. I’m sorry, I’m using the word Heidi. And my name is, my real name is Heidi, but.
SW: Yeah.
CM: I’ve been calling myself by my real name, not my pen name. Anyway, present-Heidi needs to be much better friends with future-Heidi. [both laugh]
SW: Which of those, which of those Heidis is going to have the conversation about throwing things out? [pause] Oh! [cracks up]
CM: [laughing-crying voice] Future-Heidi has to do it.
SW: [laughing] Sad face.
CM: That’s such a good question. [Sandra laughs] Yeah.
SW: Aww. It’s hard!
CM: Oh, my…yeah.
SW: It’s hard. Yeah.
CM: It is really hard. But I have faith…
SW: Yeah!
CM: …that I can do this. Mostly I have faith that I can at least get this space working for me again. And the thing I will have to do, to do that, is to figure out…how to make it feel beautiful and open again, instead of clogged and stuffed with spools of plastic…
SW: Yeah.
CM: [laughs] which is what it currently is.
SW: [laughing] Even if it’s, you know, spools of plastic for a good cause.
CM: Yeah, the thing is, I think I need to…yeah.
SW: Yeah. [laughs softly]
CM: I need to have a conversation with myself about how that exactly is going to work. I think one of the things I need to do is… [lowers voice] Okay, don’t tell my husband this.
SW: Okay.
CM: Like, one of the things I need to do is put this in our storage room…
SW: Ye-e-s.
CM: Even though we’re trying to clean out things in our storage room, so that we have room for other stuff there, but at least temporarily, I think the filament is going to, we’re going to move some of it there so that we only have a finite amount in my office instead of a near infinite amount, and then we’ll gradually move it back in as I print stuff from it.
SW: Yeah.
CM: But he’s not going to love hearing that. So it’s just going to show up and someday he’s going to be like, why is all the filament in here? And I’m going to be like, oh, is it? [both crack up] It’ll be like, oh yeah, I put it there because I didn’t want it in my office. He’ll be like, that’s not how it works. I’ll be like [laughs]
SW: [laughing] It’s called a staging area.
CM: Yeah. I already am using…yeah, anyway.
SW: [laughing] Well.
CM: That’s not really a solution because what I really need to do is… Okay, so this is the other part of my brain. I can’t tell myself not to do things because then I just really want to extra do them.
SW: [cracks up] Really?
CM: Ye-a-a-ah…I, so I have some…issues with demand avoidance.
SW: Okay.
CM: So if somebody tells me not to do something, then I’m like, fuck you, I’m extra doing it. [Sandra cracks up] Right? Like, there was a point when I was working for a federal judge where he told me not to read romance novels, I was like, fuck you, I’m writing them.
SW: [laughs] Is that how you got started?
CM: I mean, kind of, yeah.
SW: Yeah. [cracks up]
CM: It was, it was related. I was like,
SW: [laughing] Too funny.
CM: Like, okay, I hear what you’re saying, and I reject it—
SW: And…no. Yeah.
CM: —completely. Like, just being being told to do something makes me like, dig my heels in. And unfortunately, this applies when it’s me doing the telling.
SW: Yeah.
CM: So if I, if I say something like, don’t buy more filament, my, my brain is like, Buy more filament! [Sandra laughs] Right? So I can’t do that. So I have to be able to tell it something positive.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Right? Like [long pause] I haven’t figured it out yet.
SW: Yeah. So that, okay, that actually relates to one of my questions, which is: do you have a way where you like—basically you’re trying… Many people with ADHD, I’ve learned and read, do this, is you just find a way to hack your own brain. So.
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: It sounds like a possible, I wonder if a possible hack for you is to, is like, the little rewards of that, of that beautiful space. Every once in a while, like, that’s what you’re going for, that’s what you’re going for. And there’s got to be something tangible coming up soonish.
CM: Yes.
SW: Does that work?
CM: So the thing that…okay, my brain doesn’t work well with little rewards because—
SW: Uh-huh. Oh-h-h. Really?
CM: Yes. So I have tried doing the thing, like, if I reward, if I do this, I will reward myself with that.
SW: Yeah.
CM: And the thing that happens is, my brain is like, well, what if I don’t [laughing] do the thing and get the reward anyway? [Sandra cracks up] Like, if I actually really want to do it, then I’m just going to keep doing it. And if I don’t want to do it, then…
SW: Right.
CM: It’s—so, unfortunately I’m very, I’m not very reward-driven. Or let me rephrase that, I’m not very good at withholding rewards until I get things.
SW: [laughing] Yeah, yeah.
CM: So, I have to find other ways to make that happen.
SW: Uh-huh.
CM: Right? So I either have to make the process rewarding in and of itself…
SW: Right.
CM: Or it has to be a thing where it’s like, okay, I’m going to do this all in a weekend. Like the tea shelf. I only did that because I told myself I could do it in a weekend, even though I couldn’t. Right? And then I hit the point where I’d [laughing] knocked out the drywall and I didn’t have a choice but to finish. [Sandra laughs] Right? So I kind of need to do that to myself here.
SW: Okay.
CM: I kind of need to tell myself I’m going to do it in a weekend and just, like, figure out the whole plan.
SW: Yeah.
CM: And then start it and then just be like, oh, crap, I’m not finishing this. [Sandra laughs] And I recognize that that’s going to happen. But… Rewards don’t work, panic works. [both crack up] Panic’s great.
SW: Wow. Ah, well, on that note, I’m just going to say…clearly, we are all complicated. [both crack up] And we’re also works in progress. Right?
CM: Indeed. Yes.
SW: Yeah.
CM: I’m like any construction project. [chuckling] I’m always going to come in after deadline…
SW: Yeah. [laughing] Over budget.
CM: Over budget…[laughing] after deadline.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Correct.
SW: Well, I’m sure that many of us will be able to follow, sporadically, your progress on Bluesky. [laughs]
CM: Yeah. If it happens, it’ll just, like, totally happen all at once.
SW: Like, Labor Day long weekend? Labor day long weekend..? Just…
CM: No… [lowers voice] It has to be when my husband’s not here. Because otherwise he’ll object to me doing things.
SW: Oh.
CM: And he’ll—he won’t object, but I’ll… He won’t actually say anything, but I’ll be able to tell that he’s objecting. And that’ll make me mad.
SW: Yes. [laughs]
CM: So, so I have to get to the point where it’s like, it’s like, beyond the point of no return by the time he’s back. I have to wait til he’s gone.
SW: Yeah, right. Okay, okay. I’m, I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s pulling for you.
CM: Yeah.
SW: [both laugh] I just think it’s so interesting, right? Like. I mean, we’ve just been really real here, you know, like, life is not— We just gotta do what we can do, right?
CM: Mm-hm.
SW: We just have to do our best. And sometimes our best is awesome, and sometimes it’s not. But we just gotta keep going.
CM: Yeah. True.
SW: So, friends, I mean, wherever you’re at, I bet you’re, I bet I’m not the only one who’s felt like, Okay, I totally felt that, in something that Courtney was saying, and… Yeah, I don’t know, just think about it. Think about where in your life you want to do something differently, maybe. Or where you need to hack something [laughing] because something’s not working. I don’t know, there’s always something we can do, I guess is the point. Yeah. Thank you for being so honest with that.
CM: You’re welcome…I guess? [both laugh]
SW: Okay, so let’s move on to my little Small Joys segment. So what, what is something that you have or you do, to lift your spirits when you need a little boost?
CM: So I can think of three things.
SW: Okay.
CM: You want me to just pick one?
SW: No. Tell us, all three.
CM: Okay. So number one is tea.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Always. I love tea. I love the process of tea. And by tea, I should, I should specify, I usually mean, like, sitting down for, like, a gong fu session where you— I get my teapot and I do like short steeps for like, six sessions. This is just so great for my brain. It forces me to just concentrate on what I’m doing, what I’m tasting, what I’m thinking. It’s just, I love it, I love tea, I love everything about tea.
SW: Yeah.
CM: So that is something that is one of my go-tos. Another thing that I really enjoy is going for a walk. I love walking.
SW: Yes.
CM: I am a huge fan of walks for when you’re feeling frustrated, annoyed, whatever. There is, there is nothing that is better than just being able to just be like, all right, I’m out.
SW: Yeah. [laughs]
CM: I’m going somewhere. I’m not looking at my phone. Hopefully.
SW: Yeah. Rain or shine, snow?
CM: Rain or shine. I mean, it’s Colorado. The amount of rain we get is minimal, at best. Walking in snow is amazing. I love walking in snow.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Snow is gorgeous. Just let’s, let’s walk in snow more often.
SW: Awesome. [laughs]
CM: Unless it’s—the only thing I don’t like is if it’s super, super cold.
SW: Right. What’s super cold for you?
CM: Super cold for me would be like…oh, gosh, you want me to give it in Celsius or Fahrenheit?
SW: No [laughs] You can say Fahrenheit.
CM: [laughs] Okay. Super cold for me would be like, below zero Fahrenheit.
SW: Okay.
CM: Which I think is pretty cold in Celsius as well.
SW: Yeah, that’s pretty cold, yeah, yeah.
CM: Like, I start maybe, maybe around…maybe around ten degrees, I start getting really antsy.
SW: Okay.
CM: And below zero, I’m like, I’m not in the mood.
SW: [laughing] What’s the point of this? Yeah.
CM: I don’t want to go outside.
SW: Yeah. But, walks! I agree. Absolutely. Love walking.
CM: Super pro-walking.
SW: Yeah.
CM: And number three is plants. I love plants.
SW: Yay.
CM: I have a garden. Plant something. Have a succulent. Look at flowers.
SW: Yeah, that’s great.
CM: You can combine these. Like, have nature—
SW: Yes. [laughing]
CM: Like, on your walk. Like, get a handful of wildflowers from places that aren’t going to miss them. I mean, I don’t recommend taking other people’s flowers [Sandra laughs] but if—we have tons of open space near where we live.
SW: Right.
CM: And like, you can find things that look beautiful in every season, just grab a few, fill a vase when you get home, bring the outdoors inside.
SW: That’s lovely.
CM: It’s great.
SW: Yeah. Thank you. I love all those. I live in a very…more tightly urban area, so I, I just admire my neighbours’ plants. And I don’t steal from them at all. Ever.
CM: No. Why would you do that?
SW: She said, shifty-eyed. [laughing] Oh, on that note, we’re going to move to my world famous Speed Round. Okay, so—
CM: Woo-hoo!
SW: —this is where I ask you silly questions, and you just, you just answer however you want to answer off the top of your head.
CM: Sounds good.
SW: Yeah. Super low stakes. Okay, so we are doing favourites this season. And this means you can say your absolute favourite or a favourite because sometimes it’s hard to choose just one. So I’m going to give you categories, okay? Okay. Favourite way or ways to eat potatoes.
CM: Ooooooooh I, actually—smooshed. [both crack up] You know what I mean by that, right?
SW: Like smashed, right? Like smashed. [long pause] What do you mean—
CM: Smooshed means you smash them and then you fry them.
SW: Yes! I just called them smashed. Ahhh.
CM: Smoosh. I like smoosh better.
SW: Yeah. Great. Super.
CM: Smooshed sounds better, I don’t know.
SW: [laughing] Smooshed potatoes. There. You’re the first person this season who said smooshed. So.
CM: Cool.
SW: There you go.
CM: Also the only person because everyone else calls them smashed.
SW: [laughing] You’re always avant garde this way. Favourite pizza toppings?
CM: Oh, gosh, you know I am—I love pineapple, and everyone is always like, ewww pineapple on pizza, but I lovepineapple. Pineapple is the bomb.
SW: [laughing] Good for you!
CM: Pineapple. Give me pineapple on my pizza. I’ll eat pineapple on almost anything.
SW: Wow.
CM: So, pineapple.
SW: Okay, once we ordered a pepperoni and black olive pizza, but instead they gave us pineapple and black olives. [Courtney laughs] And I’m just here to tell you that was not…it was not edible.
CM: Okay, I can understand that. I can understand that pineapple and black olives [Sandra laughs] is maybe—you, you actually need something that’s going to be, like, a little more conducive to the salt/sweet combination.
SW: There you go. Okay, so I wasn’t—sorry, I wasn’t trying to upend your choice. Pineapple, favourite pizza topping, excellent.
CM: It is.
SW: Got it. [laughs] Okay.
CM: But I wouldn’t put pineapple and olives on a pizza, though, no.
SW: Okay. I’m gla-a-ad, I’m glad it’s not just me. Your favourite comfy outfit, just when you’re schlepping around at home.
CM: Okay. So I’m one of those people where I have very strict needs for my clothing because some things are too itchy and some things are
SW: Yes
CM: too, like, and also like, it can’t be too, I can’t get too hot and I can’t get too cold. [Sandra laughs] So I wear a lot of merino wool—
SW: Okay, yeah.
CM: believe it or not. I love merino wool. It’s very expensive, so I don’t wear as much of it as I would want to, but give me merino wool and like, a pair of jeans that are really super soft.
SW: Yeah, nice. Also, when you said can’t be too hot, can’t be too cold, I just heard Goldilocks in my head. [cracks up]
CM: I know. I’m, like, such a Goldilocks person.
SW: I love it.
CM: I am like, ugh. Yeah, terrible.
SW: Next is your favourite holiday.
CM: New Year’s, probably.
SW: Yeah. Nice. Okay. Your favourite tree or flower. Or both.
CM: Tree or flower or both?
SW: Like, if you like… Some people only have a tree. Some people only have a favourite flower. But if you have one of each, I’d love to hear it. [long pause] Or if you have neither—
CM: That’s hard.
SW: —that’s fine, too.
CM: I have— This is a, too many options.
SW: Yeah, okay. A favourite. A favourite, singular.
CM: A single favorite, a single favorite. Oh, let’s go with lotus.
SW: Oh, yeah. Lovely. Favourite kind of movie or TV show to wind down with?
CM: Mmmm…contradiction in terms.
SW: Really?
CM: Yeah. All of that stuff is too stimulating. It never winds me down.
SW: Okay. I mean, that’s valid. Okay. Favourite kind of chocolate.
CM: Dark chocolate with hazelnuts.
SW: Mm. Whole?
CM: And probably with sea salt. Whole hazelnuts.
SW: Yeah.
CM: Whole, whole. And especially, like, with a little bit of a roast on the hazelnut so that you get that
SW: Yeah.
CM: roasted hazelnut flavor. It’s so good.
SW: So good. Okay, I hear you. I think my mouth is watering. [laughs] And the last one is, favourite word.
CM: [pause] Favorite word..?
SW: I know.
CM: I have to pick one?
SW: Yeah, well, a favourite word. Doesn’t have to be the favourite word.
CM: [pause] But all words are so good. [Sandra laughs] Okay. Cumulus.
SW: Cumulus?
CM: Yeah. Like the cloud.
SW: Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. See? No stakes. Whatever that word is, that works. That’s great. [Courtney chuckles] Thank you so much for being such a good sport.
CM: You’re welcome.
SW: Yeah.
CM: I just, you’re like, pick a favorite. I’m like, but they’re all so good.
SW: I know. For a very long time, my favourite French word was prestidigitateur. Which…
CM: Wow…a magician?
SW: Which…is a magician, yeah.
CM: Love that.
SW: I love saying that word. I don’t know why.
CM: Well, it’s beautiful word.
SW: We know why. It just sounds so great.
CM: Yes.
SW: Yeah, so. But it is hard to pick one. [laughs]
CM: I know.
SW: Oh, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been, like, really thought-provoking—
CM: Thank you!
SW: —thought-provoking, but also really fun. Which is so wonderful. I feel very blessed to have had you as a guest. Thank you so much for joining.
CM: Thank you for having me. This has been fun.
SW: Thank you. Of course. And I’m glad you’ve had fun. For friends of the podcast, I will try and figure out the links for you, as always. Thank you for joining us. And, as always, we’ll meet up again soon. And in the meantime, create joy for yourself and others, however works for you, because we contain multitudes.
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SW: We Contain Multitudes is on The Incomparable network of smart and funny pop culture podcasts where members can access exclusive podcasts and a wonderful community. Find out more at theincomparable.com.
Special thanks, as always, to Erika Ensign, our editrix extraordinaire, of Castria Communications. Award-winning excellence in podcast production and media solutions. Check them out at wearecastria.com.
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SHOW NOTES:
Courtney’s website
The Pursuit Of… novella
Courtney’s Weekly Tea newsletter
Whistle Crew
Romancing the Vote
Discover Your Creative Ecosystem by Sarah Shotts
Gong fu style tea steeping