Episode: Olivia Dade

We recorded this chat in December 2025. Once again, I did my best to be faithful to the conversation, but I did leave out some laughter tags and other vague reaction noises. It’s the longest interview yet—probably because there was so much laughing. Really!

Show notes are included after this transcript. (If you somehow stumbled across this post without knowing about the podcast episode, hi! Here’s a handy link to find the interview on the web.) 

TRANSCRIPT:

[jazzy jumpin’ music]

Sandra Wong: Hi and welcome to We Contain Multitudes, the casual interview show with famous and accomplished guests who share the geek-outs, hobbies, and interests which they might not necessarily be known for. I am your host, Sandra Wong, and today I am thrilled to be joined by Olivia Dade. Hi, Olivia.

Olivia Dade: Hi. I do not feel especially famous or accomplished, [laughs] but I do feel like chatting with you, always, so I am delighted to be here, even though I feel a little bit like an imposter. 

SW: No. Okay. [both laugh] That is so funny. So I actually wrote a post in my newsletter that I put up on my blog about, what does it mean to be famous? Because that question has come up from people, like, what do you mean by famous? Who—how do you decide? So I wrote a little thing about it, and it’s going to be in the show notes. So, what I’m going to do right now, though, is I’m going to read a little bio that I wrote. So all of my guests, none of my guests know that I just write up these little bios. Y’know, because…I want to say, who my guests are for me, I guess, is how I’m going to say it. So. Let me read this out. A bestselling, critically acclaimed author of contemporary romance, Olivia Dade is your go-to author, if hilarious and heartfelt, not to mention steamy—hello!—is your jam. Now, throughout her extremely relatable and varied job background, though, is a common thread of education, which I humbly submit is very strong throughout her novels and helps ground them in the sort of…everyday-ness that makes them, to me, kind of magical. And not just to me, but to many, many other readers. So if you weren’t sure already, friends—Yes, I’m a massive fan.

[laughs]

So thank you. Thank you, Olivia, for letting me lean shamelessly on our friendship to get you here to talk to me today.

OD: That is very sweet and I appreciate, I appreciate the kindness of that bio.

SW: Awww. Okay. So we already, okay, we already know you’re great at your job as a romance author. So what hobby or interest [laughs] or geek-out do you want to talk to us today about?

OD: So sometime this last, about a year ago, I came to the conclusion that I really desperately needed a hobby that was not on the computer

SW: Ri-i-ight

OD: that had nothing to do with technology. Because, you know, for work, I’m on my computer all the time. You know, I maintain a lot of my friendships through video chats, as you know, from personal experience. You know, I’m on YouTube watching, watching videos for fun time. You know, occasionally, I usually would read on my phone, an app on my phone, and I just felt like I was uncomfortable with the fact that I was basically always on some form of technology and on some form, you know, always reachable. I just wanted to do something that was analog and that used my hands more than my brain. And because I just…that just sounded really inviting to me. So I started sort of looking at different hobbies and tested a couple out and was, was not thrilled with them. I mean, they were good. I tried coloring like adult coloring pages, and that was fine. But I was very… If it wasn’t pretty enough to suit me, then I didn’t…I was dissatisfied with it.

SW: Right, right.

OD: And, and I tried—I looked at embroidery and I tried just a couple other things that just never seemed to quite click. And then one of my friends on social media, “melon reads,” Melanie, who is a beloved figure in romancelandia, was showing in, on social media and talking about what she called diamond painting, which I had never heard of before. I was like, that, is it just bedazzling? 

[both laugh]

I’m like, what is this? But then she showed these little mini pictures that she had created, that was a series, where they create little mini pixel art for different national parks. And they’re…in her version that she was doing, was little squares that fit together, flush. So it creates this sort of pixel image of something that was not like…a butterfly.

SW: Right.

OD: It was—and there’s nothing wrong with liking butterflies or bedazzling. I mean, I want to be clear. If it brings you joy, go to town 

SW: That’s right

OD: Like, that doesn’t…you know, if, as long as that butterfly’s consenting, you’re good. [big laugh from Sandra] So, so to be clear. But that just wasn’t my aesthetic, so, but, but this I said, like, there was one that she had created that I just thought was was really cool and lovely. And I was like, oh, well, let me try that, then. It’ll be next to my list of hobbies to, you know. So I got this super—went online, got a super cheap little kit that was, it was a smiley face on a little bag, like an emoji smiley face on a bag for my kid. Because my, my son really likes emoji smiley faces. And so I, I was like, well, if I do it, even if I don’t love it, he can use this. He likes little bags, so, you know, pencil bags. So I did and, and I was like, no, this is… It was really nice. It’s—what diamond painting is, is it’s not actual diamonds. And most of them are not like gem-like. They’re a little resin, or acrylic, faceted squares or round pieces that you put in a grid. And typically, that grid is going to have symbols that tell you which color to put, because they come in all sorts of different colors. So it’s like a combination of paint-by-numbers and like a mosaic. It’s sort of—and, and it’s also very similar to cross stitching.

SW: Really?

OD: Like, in fact, a lot of people do conversions of cross stitch patterns to diamond painting

SW: Okay

OD: Because it’s just not making stitches, but it’s placing, placing one of the diamonds or they call them drills

SW: Yeah.

OD: where you would put a stitch. So, there’re all sort of sister crafts. 


SW: Yeah. 

OD: It is very much a craft rather than an art, unless you’re making your own.

SW: Okay.

OD: Yeah.

SW: So I am literally the “mind blown” emoji right now because painting is in the name, and I literally thought you had to somehow mix colors or know about, like, use paint. So I’m having a moment here, folks. [laughs] Like, whaaat? Oh I see! Okay. So then, okay, I’m just recalibrating. So how large are these—and they’re actually diamond shaped or are they different shapes? The ones that you

OD: They’re either square or round. It just depends on which you prefer—

SW: Why do they call them diamond—[laughs] I’m sorry, but why is it called diamond painting?

OD: [very patiently] Because they’re faceted, like a diamond might be. 

SW: [realization dawning, slowly] O-o-okay.

OD: Mostly they’re not clear. They’re like a, like a color. They use, if you do embroidery thread, they use the DMC colors. So like 454 or whatever the DM— number of DMC colors. 

SW: Right

OD: But they also have special types that have a little layer of mica on top that are called like glimmer or fairy dust.

SW: Right

OD: And there’s ones they call “AB,” that have like an iridescent coating on them. And they’re ones that look like crystals, that are sort of clear with the silver beneath. And there’s, there’s like, there’s glow-in-the-dark. I just did one that has like a moon where the m—it looks normal, then it, but it glows in the dark. So there’s special drills to…Why they’re called drills, no one knows. It, it came from China. This was a Chinese craft 

SW: Right

OD: that came to the US within, you know, it became much more popular at the beginning of the pandemic. 

SW: Yeah.

OD: So there is a theory that I’ve heard that “drills,” as for [in] the pieces

SW: Right

OD: is, as another name for the diamonds, is a mistranslation. But it doesn’t matter because everyone uses it now, so…

SW: Yeah, I understand that. Well, I’m going to ask my daughter, who, is studying Mandarin at uni, if she…[laughs] yeah, of what the word is. I’ll look it up and maybe she can tell me. Okay. So backing up, what does—what is a DMC colour? Is that a code?

OD: It is a DMC color code that corresponds with a specific color. And so it is, you know, somewhat limited, but there are 400-and-some-odd different options. And depending on the kit, the… A diamond painting, if it’s like a small pixel art, you know, could have 10 to 15 colors. Or, they have what they call color max kits, which I have not done, which can have 200 or 300 colors in a single image.

SW: [in the background] Wow

OD: I have done 70-some-odd and I suspect, I think something I’ve gotten is going to be closer to a hundred. I think that’s probably about, I—some people really like to do the others for the challenge?

SW: Yeah

OD: I’m not sure that I need that challenge. 

[both laugh]

OD: But it does mean that if you’re using lots of colors, it’s really, you know, you can have a smooth gradient from one color to another and do shadows a little bit better. And the biggest company there is, actually they fill in the gaps in the DMC and make their own colors because they actually produce their own, you know, their own drills, so they can actually create their own colors to fill in ones that they feel like are missing from the DMC.

SW: This is

OD: [overlapping] That’s Diamond Art Club.

SW: fascinating. Diamond Art Club.

OD: Diamond Art Club, and they’re the… As Amazon is to books, they are, in the diamond painting community—they are the behemoth in the diamond painting community. There’re lots of other small businesses, but they are… They’re the giants.

SW: Okay, so then I’m trying to picture this, as I’m sure people listening will be as well. So are the…pieces, are they always the same size, no matter how large the art piece ends up being?

OD: Yes, the squares should. Well, they should always be the same size. [laughter]

SW: Yes, yes.

OD: I forget exactly how big they are. They’re—Like, I can say this: if you put four of them, four rows of four together to make a square, that’s one square centimeter. So each of them is like, I guess a quarter…a quarter of a centimeter.

SW: Yeah.

OD: The circles are tiny, tiny, tiny bit bigger. So you can’t use the same canvas for both of those. The circles [sic] are just slightly, slightly larger. But in theory, they should all be. In reality… if you, the companies that have less quality control, one of the problems can be that they are not all the same size. And then when you try to fit them together so they all fit snugly, it doesn’t work. Or that the grid on the canvas is not spaced quite right so that there’s gapping, or they’re too tight. 

SW: Right.

OD: So which is why…part of the reason why Diamond Art Club is as big as it is, is because, typically there is… Everything fits just right.

SW: Ri-ight.

OD: Which is…very satisfying. Also, they use resin drills. Resin is shinier and tends to be more uniform in size than acrylic, but it is more expensive. So they…businesses that use resin drills tend to, you know, also be…you know, you pay more, but it’s also better quality typically.

SW: Okay. So I know I, I’m probably not the only person wondering: what does a drill look like? Because of course, because of the word, which may or may not be a mistranslation, I have something in my mind, but it’s not [chuckles] matching up with how I’m imagining you have to place a piece on a canvas.

OD: Right, it’s a, it’s flat—it should be—flat and square on the bottom.

SW: Okay.

OD: And then, it’s like, a faceted top. And depending on the company, may have a different numbers of facets. I think there’s some of them that have, like, somewhere like, in the teens or like thirty—depending on the company, they can have more facets, and others which will make it sparkly, or in different ways.

SW: Okay

OD: And the square ones, if they fit together well, sort of…glimmer and like a sheet. It’s like the, the round ones sort of sparkle, those sort of sparkle because of the way that they’re shaped. And there is, you know, some gap in between that. But because the canvas is colored like the image that you’re creating,

SW: Yeah

OD: you should have the coordinating color beneath, in between the drills. So that it looks like, you know, you don’t see the obvious. There’s not, like, white gaps between the

SW: Yeah

OD: the circles. Yeah.

SW: Wow. So then, you just—so you do need to have nimble fingers?

OD: You have to…I think you, it would be hard for someone who, for instance, have like, muscle tremors or

SW: Yeah

OD: Parkinson’s or something like that. It would be difficult for them to place it precisely. Some people aremore precise than others. It depends on how…how finicky you are about, like, seeing everything line up just so. Also, if you get too far off, you’re going to see the symbols.

SW: Yeah…yeah

OD: Because when you put it down, you cover the symbols. And, if you don’t put it the right place, then you can see the symbols are peeking out…sometimes. Or, you can see sort of everything looks—or there’s weird gapping. I also had to…I don’t usually use reading glasses for anything

SW: Right

OD: The symbols are small enough—again, less than a quarter of a centimeter because you also have the thickness of the lines on the grid. 

SW: Yeah

OD: So, for it to be one centimeter square, it can’t be quite a quarter of a centimeter.

SW: Ye-a-ah

OD: I…and sometimes the symbols are… If you, again, some of the less expensive companies—like, I’ve had some Ali Express kits of, to be clear, of older art that is in the public domain because there is a lot of stolen art and “AI” art.

SW: Yeah

OD: I’m not interested in those things.

SW: We don’t do that, friends. We don’t do that.

OD: No. So. But I, but I do get sometimes the Ali Express kits or the Amazon, sort of no-name Amazon kits, of older art. Like, I did Franz, Franz Marc’s The Foxes, I did a, you know, I did an Amazon kit of that. Because again, that was, like, 1913 or something. It’s not in, you know, it’s in the public domain. I’m not concerned about that. But sometimes, their symbols are blurry on the canvas. And again, that’s something else you’re paying for, when you go to one of the more expensive companies. I…don’t even know what originally I was talking about, but here we are. [laughs]

SW: No, no, I mean, I was asking about, you know, the physicality of it. So I was asking about nimble fingers. And actually, my next question was about—

OD: Eye sight!

SW: do you actually need—yeah, really good eye sight. Do you need really good lighting? I just feel like there must be a lot of gear involved.

OD: There can be. There… When I, I need it, I need it. So I use—to make things as easy on myself as possible. I first—the first few things I did, I just did, you know, without any sort of supplemental tools. But then I read about, and I fell down the YouTube rabbit hole for, like… Again, the DP community

[both laugh]

which I love. These poor innocent—I mean, again, I’m coming from the romance world 

SW: Uh-huh

OD: where “DP” means something very different for me

SW: Yup

OD: and I just—there’s just these, all these sweet innocent comments from people. Like, I read one to Sandra, I think last time, where, like, “I got my sister into DP, we’ve really bonded over it. We share photos all the time.” [Sandra laughs] And I’m like, that is very intimate. [both laugh] Anyway! So! 

SW: Oh dear.

OD: I fell down the rabbit hole of, like, DP videos [both crack up] up on YouTube, not demonetized, they’re legit. And it, and it, and they showed that there’s light pads. So you can put light pads which sort of illuminate the symbol from below

SW: Right

OD: to make it clear. And then there’s these half-moon lights that often nail techs use..?

SW: Okay.

OD: Yeah, like, people who are doing nails, because there’s no shadows to sort of illuminate from above. Because my overhead light is just not that great. And then I do use, I stole my husband’s reading glasses. Like, I had never used them before, and he had them. I’m like, Oh, and he’s like, Oh, you can use these. And I think he meant just for that day. [Sandra laughs] But he’s never had them since that day.

SW: Right, he’s discovered

OD: So yeah, I’ve, I’ve used those to make things easier on myself.

SW: Well, I mean, and let’s just say that, of course, excellent lighting is very, very crucial to successful DP. So I’m just, you know, just puttin’ that out there. Ahem. So, getting back to diamond painting, let’s, let’s get—I would love to have an idea of your collection, of your completed diamond painting collection. So, what is the smallest size of painting that you’ve completed? And what’s the largest size?

OD: I have sort of, like, mini ones, which are probably like, like 3×4 or 3×5 inches, that I’ve done. Like the, the ones that were the national parks. I did do some of those, and some sort of tiles and things. They have little sets of minis that come with many little canvasses of the same size, a similar theme, and I’ve done those, and the largest I’ve done to, to this date, that I have more…I have larger ones waiting for me. The largest one I’ve done is, I think, about 80×80..? 

SW: Oh?

OD: 80×80 centimeters. 

SW: Okay. [laughs]

OD: Which is ummm… I don’t know how many inches. [both laugh] I mean, weirdly, it’s like the one time Americans are, like, speaking in centimeters, is, like, in the diamond painting community! And it is, you know, so I, I sort of know my size by centimeters. And it’s not because I’m in Sweden, it’s just because that’s sort of… So 80 centimeters is how many inches, I don’t… I’ll have to go

SW: Are you gonna

OD: look it up.

SW: Are you gonna go to Auntie Google? …Yeah. Well, I know that, I know that 12 inches is 30cm. So if anyone wants to do the math in their head right now, you have a few seconds before Olivia comes back with our answer. I feel like now I’m on a game show. I love it. [laughs]

OD: It is 31.5 inches.

SW: There you go.

OD: So a little less than three feet by three feet. 

SW: Yeah. Nice! 

OD: And again, keeping in mind that there’s 16 pieces per square centimeter. So it was something like, I don’t know, eighty, ninety thousand pieces. 

SW: Wow. Okay, so, how long

OD: And it takes—

SW: Yeah. How long did it take you? I’m sure—I mean, you’re not doing it all at once, right? You’re, you’re breaking that up.

OD: Oh, gosh no. There’s no way. Like, you would have to be… I don’t even know, like, what sort of cocaine you’d have to be using for that [both laugh]

SW: Or, there are other drugs. [still laughing]

OD: [still laughing] Or just, like, mainlining Mountain Dew. I’m not sure. No, no, no, no. The one that I did that was so big was, one that—I got a custom of an old painting because I particularly like doing

SW: Yeah

OD: other arts—is a painting from the very early 1900s or late 1800s. And there was a lot of what they call confetti. If you’re sort of converting an image, like, particularly a painting directly from that painting to a diamond painting or to, like, a cross stitch, there’s going to be a lot of what cross stitchers also call confetti, where there’s, like, in that case, it’s just, like, one stitch of one color by itself.

SW: Ah

OD: And then you have to change out, just, colors continually. And this one was

SW: It’s complicated.

OD: you know, 70-some-odd colors. And it had, it was mostly using browns with the, with the exception of the woman. It was a witch on a broomstick

SW: Yep.

OD: looking over her shoulder, challenging—well, A) naked. But it’s not really sexual. I’m sure probab—maybe it was, gave thrills to the painter, but—looking over her shoulder at the, the watcher, the viewer and looking sort of challenging and confident and cool and composed with her hair whipping out. 

SW: Yeah.

OD: And it’s called, I think, like, “Depart for the Sabbath,” like, the witches’ Sabbath.

SW: Yeah.

OD: It’s the same artist…Albert Pénot..?

SW: Yeah

OD: Who did this, a pretty famous image around the same time of a…naked woman—again—flying in the air—again—but this one with bat wings and, like, glowing eyes. 

SW: Yeah, yeah, yeah

OD: It’s called the bat woman. 

SW: Yeah 

OD: And it is really cool. And I’m guessing he’s a little freaky, and I, I kind of appreciate that? [both laugh] He was super into, like, powerful, supernatural women, like, flying in the air naked.

SW: Yeah, yeah. Go, him.

OD: So like, good for him, man. As long as… So, anyway. But it had a ton of confetti, so, I mean, each day I would work on a section that was like 4×6 inches, and it might, each section might take me like, 2 or 3 hours. 


SW: Wow. 

OD: So, like, it took many… 

SW: Yeah 

OD: I mean, a lot of these sometimes will take me, you know, a month

SW: Yeah

OD: Of working on it consistently for several hours a day if it, if it has a ton of confetti. If it has less confetti, if someone has what they call hand-rendered it, which is taking that image and sort of cleaned up some of the confetti so that you have a more, you know, you sort of…limit the color so it looks like what the original image is, but it is cleaned up to be easier so that there’s less confetti. Then it takes a lot less time because you’re also just not hunting for like two iterations of that color, which might be nowhere near each other with all these other symbols.

SW: Okay. Yeah. So that seems to imply your pieces come in… It—does it come in a box? Is it—are they sectioned? Or, you know what I mean? Like, when you’re hunting for your, your particular confetti

OD: Right.

SW: or any other color, how are you finding them? Clearly, it’s not just a jumble bag. That would be awful.

OD: Right. So when you get it, it comes with… Typically, these days they use poured glue. And then there’s a clear plastic sheet on front, covering the glue. And then, if it’s Diamond Art Club, they have a perf—that’s perforated into squares like 4×4 squares. You could just tear off that section and then, you know, or tear off two or however big you—section you want to work on. But when there’s a lot of confetti, sometimes it’s better to have a smaller section because otherwise it can get a little overwhelming. If, if it’s not Diamond Art Club, if it’s not perforated, in which case some people use washi tape to section it and then just cut off that section of the plastic. I just take off the plastic entirely and then cover it with what they call release papers

SW: Uh-huh

OD: which are, like, it can be like parchment or like silicon. They will not stick to, you know, it sticks to the glue, but it can come off cleanly and then just basically cover it up and then just take off the release papers. 

SW: Ahh

OD: Mine are like, again, about 4×6, and I just take off one of those and start working on the section that I’ve just uncovered. 

SW: Yeah.

OD: So, yeah. But people—everyone has sort of different preferences. What I was also going to say about, like, tools is you can go as nuts as you want with this. I have not fully… I have gone nuts as far as my kits, but I have not gone nuts as far as tools because there are people who buy—you can get specially turned diamond painting pens. Because the way it works is, you have what they call a pen. You load that pen up with some sort of wax or putty, which is sticky enough to lift up one of the drills. Or, many. You can use multiple placers, which pick up a bunch of them in a row,

SW: Oh

OD: from a tray. And again, you come, all these come with a basic tray. 

SW: Yeah

OD: It helps them to line up, but you can get all sorts of different types of trays and all sorts of different types of materials and expenses, including personalized, bigger, ones that light up…whatever you want.

SW: Yeah

OD: You know, different sizes, and you shake it out so that it forms lines. You take your pen. The wax or putty sticks to the diam—the diamond or drill, and then you place it on the canvas. And the glue on the canvas has to be stronger than the putty or the wax. So it sticks to the canvas and cleanly comes off of your pen. That is sort of the basic. That’s how you,

SW: Yeah.

OD: you diamond paint. 

SW: Yeah

OD: There’s lots of different—but if you wanted to, and there are people who do this, they get special pens hand-turned from either wood or resin 

SW: Uh-huh

OD: or all sorts of stuff that match the, each canvas they’re doing, or make special, get special trays that match their particular canvas they’re doing and get washi tape. I do get, I have some washi tape. I line the edges of my canvas with coordinating washi tape, because sometimes the glue goes outside, where the drills are supposed to go. And so, so you don’t stick to it and your, like, hair doesn’t stick to it and other stuff doesn’t stick to it.

SW: Yeah, wow.

OD: I line it with the washi tape so that only the part that is supposed to have the pieces, is sticky. But some people get coordinating—again, coordinating washi tape, coordinating pens, coordinating

SW: Yeah

OD: …trays. It could add up.

SW: Right.

OD: A lot. I do not…And, and storage systems. Because within every craft 

SW: [laughing] Yes?

OD: There is, there are many, there are many sub crafts. One of those is shopping for supplies. 

SW: Absolutely.

OD: Another is buying supplies. There’s organizing the supplies and finding room in your household for the supplies [both laugh] as well as actually doing the crafts. But there’s also these other things too, so…

SW: Yeah, yeah. Wow. Where do you—do you have a special place in your home that you do it, so that you can just leave your stuff there? You’re not always having to, you know, clear the dining room table, for example, you know, to work like that, is that…your recommendation?

OD: We are fortunate enough that we have sort of a large open area where we have—in our apartment—where we have the kitchen, and then the dining room area, and then the living room. And the dining room area is large enough that our dining room table…we can put the leaves in, and it still fits. Like, we have enough room. And if you put the leaves in it, it can fit, you know, ten people.

SW: Right.

OD: Like, four on each side. And so what we do is just leave the leaves in, and I take the far end of the table where we don’t eat because there’s just the three of us. It’s my-myself, my husband and our son. And so I take the side that we don’t use, and I just take that section of the table. And that’s where I do it all the time. I oh, basically, unless we have guests, I never have to put it, you know

SW: Yeah

OD: to put it away. 

SW: Yeah. That is very handy. It’s just, like 

OD: It is. 

SW: Yeah. I’m, um, just a side note. I love jigsaw puzzles, but I don’t do them a lot because I don’t have a big flat space…you know, to just leave the puzzle, and I do have a puzzle mat, so. But I even find that troublesome because I’m just—

OD: There’s a puzzle mat? Like, is it like…what’s a puzzle mat?

SW: It’s felt. And you do your puzzle on top of it, right? You just put all your pieces on there and it’s just, you know, felt is just a tiny little bit grabby. You just roll it up when you’re done and it does not—when you unroll it, when you’re ready to reuse—to go, um, do more work on your puzzle, the pieces that you put together stay exactly how they were.

OD: Wow.

SW: I know [chuckles]

OD: You see? Every craft has its—my sister does does puzzles, too, jigsaw puzzles, too. And I had never heard of such a thing. You see? If there is a craft, there are a variety of people selling you things 

SW: [laughs] Absolutely!

OD: that you [laughs] you can use to make that craft easier, or more fun or more aesthetically pleasing.

SW: [still laughing] Yes, absolutely. So that is my next question. So, I am imagining, like, you must have quite a few diamond paintings and they’re all, like, beautiful and shimmery. Do you just put them up on your wall or have you given some away, like, how do you store them? I mean, you live in an apartment, there must be limited wall space.

OD: There is. And that wall space is mostly taken. We found a spot, sort of the hallway where we have my husband’s and my bedroom, my office, and our bathroom. 

SW: Yeah

OD: I have a little spot, sort of near the bathroom door, in the hallway, where we haven’t really done anything with that spot. So what we did is, we put up a magnetic frame, and when I finish a piece, my—this is my husband’s idea. When we finish a piece, we put it up there so we can enjoy it. And then the next time I finish a piece—as long as I actually like it as much or better. If I don’t like it as much, then I have, like, a portfolio like a, that we could slip it in with, like, plastic sheets. Or for the small ones, I have, like, a little photo album

SW: Yeah

OD: that you know, you can just slip it in. But for the big ones, we display it until I have, you know, it gets supplanted by the next one. And then, the one that was there goes into, in theory, the portfolio. The problem is the portfolio is not quite big enough for my bigger ones. And, Sandra, my biggest ones that I have not yet done are, in centimeters, 80×120.

SW: [laughs] Oh dear. 

OD: So, like. So they’re, like

SW: Yeah

OD: What was it..? Three-and-a-half feet by…

SW: Thirty-one-point-five inches by…yeah. So that’ll be almost three feet by four.

OD: Yeah. Soooo it’s not—the portfolio is not big enough for that. So when those are done my husband— Part of my Christmas gift and anniversary gift is he’s doing various DP-related [cracks up laughing] [both laugh]

SW: Say that again, say that again?

OD: [laughing] One of them is…is [both laugh] That’s fine. That anniversary gift is, he’s giving me the gift of DP. [both crack up again] So we’re just, we’re using cardboard to, like, make, like, a container where I can just clip it shut. Yeah, that, you know, would be big enough. And hopefully, we might be able to store under the bed, but our bed has, like, like a foot in the middle, to support it in the middle.

SW: Ohhh, what are you going to do? 

OD: But that’s his problem because I told him I wanted that for my gift, so he’s going to make it work. And then he’s doing a couple other things, like a little storage shelf in my, in the closet. 

SW: Yeah.

OD: So I could do my diamond painting boxes because they’re—I’m running out of space

SW: Uh-huh?

OD: because it is a European apartment. And I have to compete with, like

SW: Yeah. I have, like, I have complete confidence in your husband. He will make this work. [both giggle] Oh my goodness. So, okay. [clears throat] If you were…talking to someone who wants to get started, what would be, like, I don’t know, top three tips? [clears throat] I know I’m putting you on the spot, but I have faith in you.

OD: The first is, is, would be if you have any trouble seeing the symbols to get, you know, either the light pad or the, the half-moon light or both. The second would be to make sure that this is— People within the community, it’s very niche interest, but there is a community


SW: Yeah

OD: a very passionate community. And they are famous that when they first discover it and, like, get really into it, they buy a ton of kits that, a few months later, they’re like—they have a better sense a few months later, what they actually like to diamond paint.

SW: Right.

OD: Like, what sort of images do they prefer? Do they prefer images with a lot of confetti or with a lot of color blocking where there’s a lot of the same color, so you—in a, in an area. Do they prefer landscapes or are they someone who prefers portraits? Do they like, like, what sort of images? What size do you like?

Is, are the big ones intimidating to you and you’d prefer smaller ones? 

SW: Yeah

OD: Or do you like the challenge of having bigger, more elaborate sort of images? And these are things that you can’t really know until you’ve done it for a little while. But people go nuts—including myself—when they first pick it up and get a ton of kits. And they are not…inexpensive. I mean, they’re, they’re not cheap, unless you go through like, you know, no-name Amazon, AliExpress. And often, you know, those come with their own issues, like we said, for a variety of reasons. But if you get licensed artwork, that is, like, good quality canvases and drills and so forth, then it’s not cheap. You end up buying a lot of stuff which you may be, like, Uhhhhh I don’t know. So make sure—if you’re going to devote this much time and effort to something 

SW: Yeah

OD: that you absolutely love the artwork that you’re doing. 


SW: Right

OD: And don’t invest too much, until you have a better sense of, like, what sort of images you really enjoy

SW: Yeah

OD: doing because it is, it’s… As joyfulness as it is, it’s also a very large investment of time and patience. And, and if you are not into the image, that can get very grueling. So… 

SW: That makes sense. I mean, it might be worth it for some people, and it depends on one’s temperament probably, and maybe 

OD: Yeah

SW: budget situation. It might be worth it to try one of the cheapie, cheapie kits and see

OD: Yeah

SW: if the act of doing them, putting it together is something that you enjoy. Okay. Thank you for that. And that actually brings up another question for me that I, I put a pin in mentally earlier, which is, when you are doing it, are you listening to music? Are you chatting with someone? Is it silent because it’s meditative? Like, you know, clearly you chose this hobby because you said earlier, it’s analog, you’re away from a screen, etc., etc. But what is your brain doing while you’re, you know, while you’re…during, doing the physical stuff?

OD: Sometimes I will just do it in silence, in part. And that’s actually a deliberate choice because I love listening to music and sometimes I do listen to music, but I think, I think there are so few occasions in my life now, in our lives now, that are free of outside stimulus, where you’re just sitting there with your thoughts. Now, I’m not completely with my thoughts because I am also placing it, but it, it doesn’t— It takes some concentration, but you still…You know, and actually, if it’s a color blocking area, it doesn’t take that much concentration. [Sandra laughs] It depends. But…I don’t think it’s such a terrible thing. I’ve spent a lot of my life doing my best not to be alone with my thoughts

SW: Mm-mm

OD: and I don’t think it’s such a terrible thing to sometimes, like, sit with your thoughts.

SW: Yeah

OD: And I’m trying to sort of practice that a little bit. And sometimes I listen to music. If my family is home..? The lovely part is, because I’m not on my computer, I’m not in my office away from them. 

SW: Right

OD: So, like, I am present for them. I may not always be looking at them, but I’m listening and I can carry on a conversation. Now, occasionally I do mess up a color. [both laugh] I am paying too much attention to the conversation and and maybe not enough to what I’m…supposed to be doing. 

SW: Right.

OD: But, but it does mean this hobby, being what it is, out at the dining room table, which I deliberately chose, an area that faces the door, the front door, faces the kitchen, it is facing where my family is, typically. So that I am, I’m not at my computer watching a video, which I do. Again, I do that, too—

SW: Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with that.

OD: Right, but I’m not doing that all the time, in a way that, you know, they can’t reach me. And I think that that’s been a really unexpected bonus, too. Is that, is that it, it has made me, I think, more often available to my family in a way that I probably was not before.

SW: That’s really lovely. Yeah. Because I have to admit, when I think about, hobbies, people’s hobbies and, and whatnot, I do think of it usually—unless you’re doing it in a group thing, like, say, your hobby is is sculling, you know, you go to the rowing club and you’re with people. But, for nerds like us, usually it’s solitary stuff. [laughs] So, that’s really lovely. What a lovely bonus to have. And, and also, lovely listeners, I have—I’ve kind of met Olivia’s family and they are just lovely people to spend time with. So, you know, that’s so great.

OD: They’re chatty souls. [Sandra laughs] I am an introvert, I am chatty, but…I like time to myself too. And, and one-on-one time. They are, they are extroverts. They are social creatures. And, this gives me an opportunity to be around them.

SW: Yeah

OD: And, like, participate in a conversation, but in a way that feels, like…doesn’t feel sometimes—like, sometimes it is like a wall of noise [both crack up] with my family. And I say this with love

SW: Of course

OD: And that is part of the reason I do sometimes escape to my office. [still laughing]

SW: [still laughing] Yeah, some of us know what that’s like.

OD: But sometimes, like, my, my son just wants to, like, you know, he’s listening to something on YouTube, and he just wants to, like, dance around the dining room table. Like, it’s very sweet because

SW: Yeah

OD: I don’t know how much longer he’s going to want to do it, but, like, he wants to dance around like where…by his family.

SW: Yeah

OD: He calls himself a living room kid. He likes kind of hanging—I mean, he likes to be around in his room some of the time, but he also still likes to be near us sometimes. 

SW: Yeah

OD: And, you know, even if he’s just being goofy and, like, dancing around…and I get to be there for that. 

SW: Yeah, yeah. 

OD: You know?

SW: Oh, I love that. I’m really feeling that because, my, my children are older and 

OD: Mm-hm

SW: yeah, they do, like, just— We do like to spend time together as a family. And, one of them’s gone away to uni, so, you know, I—oh. [sighs] So parents out there, enjoy, enjoy those years [laughs ruefully] when your kids are still really enjoying being around you.

OD: Yeah

SW: As we all know

OD: I mean, 

SW: it won’t last forever. 

OD: I mean, I’m actually pleasantly surprised that…that he is willing to be around us as much. 

SW: [laughing] Yeah

OD: But he is and that’s just—I know that that’s a gift and I…I am grateful for it. 

SW: Yeah

OD: Like, it is not a gift I have taken for granted. I’m grateful for it. 

SW: Yeah, that’s so lovely. So, just to segue a little bit, are either your husband or your son interested in diamond painting? When they, when they’ve seen you do it? Or is, there’s just, you know, too still for them introverts, their, their—excuse me, their extroverted souls?

OD: My husband has, I mean, he’s, he, he’s supportive of the hobby, but he has expressed no interest. My husband has 12 million hobbies of his own. So no. My husband runs marathons and is teach—is learning the piano and is learning guitar and has, like, made his own video games and 

SW: Oh wow

OD: he bi—he does cycling. You know, he runs. You know, like I said, he runs. He’s, he’s on the board of our apartment building, like

SW: Right, he’s a little busy

OD: So he has twelve— He has no time.

SW: Yeah

OD: He has no time for any new hobbies. I keep him hopping. And then, my son, he did one or two. He really wanted to do the little… One of those little mini kits had little mini pixel versions of famous art, and so, like, one of them had Gustav Klimt’s The Kiss, and it was very, like, you had to kind of know what The Kiss looked like to be able to— [laughs] Some of them are more recognizable than others, but, 

SW: [laughing] Ye-es

OD: he really likes Klimt, so he wanted to do that one. 

SW: Neat!

OD: And so he did that one.

SW: Yeah.

OD: And then he was going to do, I think he was going to do— Which one was it? Magritte..? Like, the one with, the man with the apple in front of his face. ‘Something of Man.’ It was René Magritte, I believe. And he, he just, you know, he has, like—this isn’t a secret, but he has pretty, like, significant ADHD, and it was just, it was… It really just wasn’t his jam. Like, he loves drawing, but he likes drawing his— His art is beautiful, but he likes drawing his own thing. So I finished that for him. And, you know, it’s the same thing happened with—I went through a brief…a brief but expensive Lego stage. [both laugh] And so he got started.

SW: I mean, like, as one does. As one does.

OD: [laughing] As one does before one moves on to DP. And so, there is, like, he started this Spider-Man one, this really cool, big Spider-Man one, and I finished it for him because he…and he has it up on his wall. He loves it. So, like, it’s great. But no, it was not, it was not for him. But sometimes I, I solicit his opinion on which washi tape I should use,

SW: Right

OD: his artistic opinion for the border and

SW: Yeah

OD: and he suggested the one I’m working on now, which is like, he’s “You should do a Christmas kit.” And I was like, okay. So I, I chose one of my more wintry kits now.

SW: Yeah. And that’s so sweet. That’s so sweet.

OD: The sweetest thing—just since we’re gushing about my son—is that I know that it is not… It is a craft. It is not an art. I’m following directions about where to put stuff.

SW: Right.

OD: And that’s actually part of the beauty for me. My job is create—is generative creativity. 

SW: Yeah.

OD: Right?

SW: Yeah, yeah. 

OD: Generating something out of sort of…your mind, you know, make—one might even say, making shit up. [both laugh]

SW: Yeah. I mean, one might.

OD: One might, I just did. and I really need something. I’m, like, I’m, I, I engage with creativity plenty. Like, I just want something that, again, is more meditative, that I don’t have to think quite as hard about. But so I don’t—I, I’m proud of them because it takes a lot of time and patience and I, and I often love the results, but I do not consider it sort of, like, a particular accomplishment other than, like, other than patience and time.

SW: Yeah.

OD: Right? But not necessarily a huge amount of skill. Although there are people who are better at like multi-placing and—anyway. But my point is, is when we had guests, he, like, without my asking—we weren’t even talking about it—he went into where we had it tucked away in the guestroom, my big 70×71 that I just finished, and, like, brought it out to the guests, to show it off to the guests what his mom had done, because he was just so, like, “Isn’t amazing? Look at this.

SW: Awwwww

OD: that she did this” and was really, like, proud of it and, like, brought it—I mean, it was hidden away in the guest room. I had no intention of showing anyone. And he brought it out to show it off, and I thought that was super, super sweet. He’s— One of the things I love about my kid is how proud he is of what we do. 

SW: Yeah

OD: You know? My writing, but also, you know, also…also my diamond painting.

SW: Yeah.

OD: So.

SW: Yeah. Oh, now that we’ve all fallen in love with Olivia’s son… Awww, that is adorable. 

OD: [laughing] Who wouldn’t? 

SW: Yeah, he’s pretty darn great. I have one final question related to…DP—I just can’t not say that, Olivia—which is: So if someone wants to find out more, and peruse things, where is a starting place website they might be able to go to, that you would recommend?

OD: It depends on sort of where you want to begin. I would say again, the behemoth in the community is Diamond Art Club, and they do have smaller kits. Like, search starter ones. You can always, you know, you can always filter your results or buy ‘low price to high price,’ sort of see—and they actually have some of their smaller kits on Amazon, too. If you want to buy from Amazon, but

SW: Okay…not everyone

OD: Generally, yeah. 

SW: Not everybody does.

OD: Not everyone does, so maybe directly through them. I think that…I started out, my first one was one called “Diamond Dots” with a ‘z.’ [both laugh] And then. But that’s because they, they’re a little bit less expensive. Their stuff is usually acrylic rather than resin, but they do a nice job, particularly with their circle ones. And that’s where I started. So I would choose an inexpensive small kit. Maybe look at a YouTube intro. There’s lots of intro YouTube videos. One of the creators that I find particularly, found particularly useful and still watch her, is Diamonds and Washi, it’s called.

SW: Yeah.

OD: And she has some good intro sort of how to, like, tips and tricks for, like, how to do it in a way that, how to do diamond painting in a way that, maybe, will bring you more joy.

SW: Yeah.

OD: And, and I think that’s a good place to start, is with something small. I—Again, I think it’s hard when you get these cheap kits from Amazon or from AliExpress. Even if you will try to avoid “AI” and try to avoid stolen artwork, the quality may not make it as enjoyable as it could be if you actually

SW: Right

OD: had a better quality.

SW: Right

OD: So even if it’s an inexpensive small kit—Oh, the, the National Parks kits are from a company called Paint Gem, and they have all sorts of different themes. They have a really beautiful one with stained glass windows.

SW: Ohh that sounds lovely, yeah, yeah

OD: They’re all mini. Stained glass windows, and one with doorways and, like, there’s lots of… And so maybe that’s a good place to start. 

SW: Right, okay

OD: But get something small, get something that’s decent enough quality that you can get a sense of, like—and round drills are more forgiving than square. 

SW: Ah

OD: So maybe start with round because the placement is a little bit less crucial for them.

SW: Oh, nice. That’s a great tip. Okay, so we’re, if… You can tell, everyone, we’re heading towards a wrap-up. And, of course, it’s our Small Joys segment next. So, Olivia, what is something that you do or that you have that lifts your spirits when you need it?

OD: Around in the last year or two, I have tried to sort of think of non technologically-based things that bring me joy and try to…try to sort of encourage those things. So one thing that I’ve started doing in recent years, the last year or two, is occasionally just get things that smell good. 

SW: Oh, yeah

OD: Like, take them out. Like, I have this Neal’s Yard Remedies eucalyptus salve because I really like how it’s—I just think it smells really nice. And I’ll just. Even if I don’t have anything I need to salve, though, right now, I do, because—I know I was, I was telling Sandra before we began that I just made chili for dinner, and I, it uses a lot of poblanos, my recipe, and I just don’t consider poblanos super hot. So I just tore them into pieces for the food processor with my hand and, like, some of the juice, poblano juice, obviously got on my hands. My hands were bare, not on my face. And I…I kind of have a chemical burn

SW: Oh, noooo 

OD: [laughs self-deprecatingly] on my hands. But, anyway, I don’t even know what I was saying. I’m sorry. I just want to complain about my hands. [still laughing]

SW: No. No, no, we are all sending hopes 

OD: Oh! 

SW: that you’re feeling better… Eucalyptus salve.

OD: Oh, yes!

SW: Things that smell nice.

OD: Even if I don’t need a salve, I, I, you know, just put a little bit on my sort of pulse points. I got little mini perfume samples. 

SW: Yeah.

OD: Just—I tried out different ones just because it’s fun to, like, smell different things. And sometimes you try, you’re like, oh, no, that’s not for me. 

SW: [laughs] But that’s funny too.

OD: And other times, you know, you really love it. And then also, I try to have things that feel nice to touch…

SW: Mm-hm

OD: …nearby. Like, I, I got these little—I also went through a brief [laughs] a brief phase of, like, I still watch the videos on YouTube of, like, turning, hand-turning wood on the lathe.

SW: Uh-huh. Oh? Yeah…

OD: But I really love the feel of, sort of polished wood. And so, like, this is, like a burl, but it’s like— Polish has, like, this beautiful feel to it. 

SW: Yeah.

OD: And, or I take, like, a really hot shower because there’s nothing like, particularly if your hands or feet or cold, which they often are if you’re in Sweden and it’s…December. Step into a shower and it’s just on the verge of too hot, and you, like, get in there and it just streams over you. You sort of…that sort of sense of, like, animal comfort

SW: Yeah, yeah

OD: of the heat of it. The animal comfort of being that. I, I’ve tried to sort of focus on those things instead of treat myself to, like, watching the video or something. 

SW: Yeah.

OD: Like, try to make something that is sensory and physical and again, like, analog because…

SW: I love that.

OD: I have grown—and this is one of the beauties of the diamond painting, is that it has sort of renewed my love for art, because there is all sorts of art that people do. Some of it, a lot of it is not my aesthetic, but some of it is. And so I’ve been looking at a lot of older paintings, but also sort of modern artists. And, I have new appreciation for anything made by a human…in the age of “AI,” like. 

SW: Ye-e-ah

OD: Because there’s a lot of “AI” slop in diamond painting. Even the more expensive companies. There are artists that often use “AI” and, you—they have that unearthly glow. You know what it looks like. Sort of the unearthly “AI” image glow. Lots of girls with big eyes, lots of, like, if it’s a grown woman, like, she generally always has a really big chest, like, I mean, because it’s the “AI” results are, you know, often 

SW: Mm-hm 

OD: sexualized because that’s what it’s been fed. Anyway, I have more appreciation for human art. Even the human art that is not my jam. The fact that it is recognizably made by a human? 

SW: Yeah

OD: I have, I— There is a certain sort of, loveliness to it for me, that even if I’m, like, this isn’t for me, I don’t want to diamond paint it. But, like, I love the fact that it is very clear that a human made this.

SW: Yeah.

OD: So.

SW: Yeah. I feel that.

OD: And I say this as someone who… I got all my—my friend group, I met on the internet. I talk to them using the internet and video chats, like we are doing now. I, my career, I think, is largely based— Some version of the internet, I think, is where my first major editors have sort of encountered me. I did online Submission Thing the first— I mean, so my career and my friend group— I met my husband online dating. So, like I say, this is someone who, many of the joys of my life are based on the internet and the computer

SW: Right. And tech.

OD: But, but there has to be… For me, there had to be more balance. And I think that it has brought me a great deal of joy to sort of look at… I’m going to say, I’m sorry, this is long winded. There is an artist who did Sleeping Beauty’s Disney [sic]. He was the, I think, the art designer Eyvind Earle, who’s, who’s passed away now. But he, he has this really… His trees. It’s very stylized trees that are very specific. It’s very clearly him. They look sort of gnarled, vaguely eerie, ominous, but really beautiful. And if you saw his images of his, his work from Sleeping Beauty, the original movie, you would recognize it. 

SW: Yeah, yep.

OD: And I was just telling a friend the other day, his trees look like no other trees. They’re recognizably his. Something as basic as a tree. How many people have drawn or painted trees over the centuries? 

SW: Mm-hm, mm-hm

OD: How many people? Millions of people. This one man found a way of seeing a tree that is still recognizably a tree, but he could portray in a way that is beautiful, but also unmistakably his own.

SW: Yeah.

OD: That is…in a secular way…so miraculous to me. 

SW: Right

OD: But, like, that he could, that an artist—like these really talented artists, you recog—you don’t, you can’t mistake their work for anyone else’s. Even if they’re drawing or painting or what—creating the most basic thing on this earth. Like a tree. 

SW: Yeah

OD: It is. Yeah, it is remarkable to me. And that is part of actually what diamond painting has brought me back to. Is looking at different art, exploring different art, figuring out what I love and, and really appreciating… Appreciating is what humans can do. Again, with the help of technology. Often his—his art was made into a film

SW: Yeah

OD: but, but it’s also recognizably human. And that is really beautiful to me. And that’s part of what diamond painting has done for me too.

SW: I love that. Oh, thank you for sharing that. I mean, that’s, I think that’s the great thing for me. One of the great things, talking to these, you know, wonderful people like you who…have these interests and hobbies. Because I, I love knowing why, the why behind it. What interests you, what’s fun about it or, you know, whatever. But, really, at the end of the day, we’re really just exploring what it’s like just to live in this world as ourselves. And what are we doing to bring ourselves joy? and others joy, too? So, I really like that. Thank you so much for sharing that. I’m going to continue our wrap-up because even though I could continue talking on and on and on with you, I know you have other things to do.

OD: I warned you that I ramble. You knew. [laughs] You were warned.

SW: [laughs with delight] I love it. Okay, so, we are— We’re onto the speed round now.

OD: Good luck.

SW: So this is where [both crack up] This is where I give you, this is where I give you a choice of two options, and you just answer whatever off the top of your head. There’s no right or wrong. There’s no judgments. Just, you know, whatever off the top of your head. And we’re really just going for silliness. So, are you ready? [laughs]

OD: All right, I’m ready.

SW: I’m ready, I’m ready. Okay, here we go. Popcorn or potato chips?

OD: Potato chips. Unless it’s caramel popcorn. In which case, caramel popcorn. If it’s salted caramel popcorn, I’m like, drop-kicking the potato chips into… Although it’s harder if it’s, like, kettle chips. I really do love like, kettle chips. It’s just the salt. Those are really good. But cara—salted caramel popcorn…

SW: That’s the winner.

OD: has my heart. But plain popcorn can go slink off in a cave somewhere. I don’t care about that.

SW: Okay [both crack up] okay. Next up, jelly beans or jujubes?

OD: I don’t even know what jujubes are. 

SW: Oh!

OD: I’ve heard of them, but I don’t know what they are.

SW: You’ve, so you’ve never had them.

OD: I don’t—not, not that I remember. I probably have in my youth,

SW: Okay

OD: my long ago [both crack up] misspent youth. But I don’t remember.

SW: Right. Yeah. So if I were writing a headline, it would be, like, Olivia Dade: Jujubes are…are forgettable.[laughs] Okay.

OD: I really love, there’s a type of jelly bean, not like a Jelly Belly— I used to get for Easter every year, the Russell Stover pectin jelly beans, which are, like, they they taste… I really love those. They’re, like, larger. They taste more natural. They’re not like a ton of flavors. If the flavors are red, orange, green [laughs], purple, yellow, those are the flavors. I really

SW: [laughing] They’re, they’re straightforward

OD: [still chuckling] They’re, like, a little more old-fashioned than I—I do, I really do like those. I haven’t had them in years.

SW: Yeah. Oh-ho, okay. Okay. So next is sweet or savory?

OD: There was a time where I would have said, Sweet, a hundred percent…but I— Over the years, particularly since moving to Sweden, actually, my…my, my sweet tooth has sort of waned. If I made it…

SW: Yeah.

OD: Oh [reconsidering] well, I like my savory stuff too. [Sandra laughs] If I, I, like, my, I— This is no offense to the Swedes, they do many things beautifully. They are not, their desserts are generally not to my taste, with few exceptions. So if it’s my desserts—which are so very much inflected by growing up in Virginia and Maryland, so a lot of like pound cakes, Bundt cakes, things like that. Again, I’m a woman of a certain age, so Bundt cakes are our love language. So…if it’s my desserts, then yes. But I also have, like, I really love cooking. That’s another one of the things that I love, so. 

SW: Okay.

OD: If I made it, both.

SW: A-ha. [laughs] Oh, that’s a great answer.

OD: If the Swedes made it, savory. [both crack up]

SW: Awesome. Okay. Night owl or early bird?

OD: I am now… I have become a night owl. I was an earlier bird, when I taught high school. I got up at 4 a.m. every morning so that I could 

SW: Wow

OD: I went to the gym before going to the high school because kids started arriving at, like, 6:30. So if you wanted to get in before them… I tried to get to my school by about 6:00 because school started 7:15, the kids start filing in around 6:30. So, if you wanted any time to yourself

SW: Yeah

OD: I got up at 4:00 every morning.

SW: I am happy for your night owl years [laughs]

OD: Yeah.

SW: Okay, here’s the next one. Socks or bare feet?

OD: Bare feet. But I wear [cracks up] I wear my work Crocs around my house all the time. I have no shame about the Crocs. I discovered them when I worked as a retail clerk at a bakery. They’re really great because you can just wash them. Like, hose them down, because it tends to be like flour and stuff everywhere. And I was like, these are amazing. [both laugh] Why have I been wearing adult shoes? [both crack up] Like, all this time when I could have been wearing these floating clouds of hideous plastic? Why have I not been doing this the whole time? 

SW: You know what? I, I’m shocked that Croc has, Crocs have not got in touch with you to be a spokesperson, with that glowing recommendation.

OD: I actually don’t even think they’re that hideous. I really don’t care. I wear them outdoors, too. Not all the time, but I do sometimes wear them outdoors because otherwise my feet and my back hurt. Like, I would rather… I am very blessed in the upper body department and, like, everyone in my family, all the women—but a lot of the men on my mother’s side of the family too. Our backs are jacked. Like…and it does not help. So, we naturally have terrible backs—and it does not help that I am, like, I did not… I am very much, felt like Dolly Parton on top, even though there was like… It’s all natural, but, like, and, and so it, like, throws off my, like, I need support. So like, if I wear the shoes, my back hurts less, I can stand for longer if I wear Crocs. So like, I mean, I’m genuinely super grateful that they exist because they have saved me a lot of back pain, so.

SW: I’m, I’m happy for you too. But you clearly, then, you wear them barefoot.

OD: I wear them barefoot. That is correct. 

SW: Okay, good. Okay. We have three more. 

OD: Okay.

SW: Next is ocean voyage or mountain cabin? [long pause] Remember, no judgments. [laughs]

OD: I mean, I went on a cruise this summer and got Covid. Even though I masked the entire

SW: Boo [at Covid, not masking]

OD: freaking cruise, I managed to still get Covid. I did…I did— There was a time where I did love cruises. Maybe if it were, like, the QE II. Like, the Golden Age. Not, not the Titanic. Clearly. 

SW: I mean

OD: But I, one of my— Probably  one of my favorite vacations that I ever took—well, one of them was Hawaii, so there’s that. But the other one was, we went to the Swiss, I took my mom when she turned 60. I went  into credit card debt to take her to the Swiss Alps because she really wanted to see the Alps. And I sort of felt like…don’t postpone joy because you just don’t know. But 

SW: [quietly] Yeah 

OD: Like

SW: Yeah.

OD: So she was like, well, maybe after I retire and I’m like, no, we should go. So at the time I was teaching, so I didn’t have a ton of money, but I, I yeah, I went into credit card debt. We stayed at cheap places but, like took, you know, got the cheapest tickets we could find. But we went to Switzerland for two weeks and Lauterbrunnen and that whole area was just—it was stunningly, heartbreakingly beautiful. 

SW: Ye-e-ah.

OD: Like, so…both. First take me on a beautiful [laughter] beautiful trip to Hawaii and then. And then get me in the, the Alps and then I would be very, very happy. 

SW: Yeah. O-o-o-h-h, that’s great. I mean, and there’s no wrong answer, right? I mean, both things. It just depends on the person. 

OD: Yeah.

SW: Okay. This next one. Fine dining or drive thru?

OD: [long pause] Okay, so here’s the deal. 

SW: [laughs] Okay. 

OD: If you were to ask me what food I miss the most from the US… 

SW: Yep

OD: it’s not actually fine dining. Although I do love— I, I am a cook, I appreciate fine dining, I love food that tastes really good, but the food I— Like, [wistful] I really miss Panera. [Sandra laughs with delight] I really miss, you know, it is, sometimes you just want ranch dressing on something fried [both laugh] Like. And there is, like, there’s…I can’t really get. It’s the things I can’t get here. I can get fine dining here. 

SW: Yeah, yeah

OD: If I want fancy food, I can get that. But a specifically American brand of, like, mid-range, cheap mid-range—not necessarily drive thru but, like 


SW: Yeah

OD: So I would say fast casual.

SW: Okay, there we go. [laughs in delight]

OD: Fast casual is what I miss. Is, is that sort of brand of restaurant which isn’t as much a thing here. I miss that.

SW: Yeah

OD: And like, you know, your Chili’s, Applebee’s [Sandra cracks up] Like, I miss Cheddar Bay biscuits from Red Lobster [both laugh] and it’s— The one near my mom closed so I can’t even just go in and get, like, Cheddar Bay biscuits when I visit because they’re—

SW: Yeah

OD: Private equity, man. Always. 

SW: Yeah. Boo.

OD: If a beloved institution, like a, like, chain institution closes, private equity is the murderer, somewhere in the shadows. R.I.P. Joann’s and…and, and

SW: Yeah

OD: Anyway. Capitalism, man.

SW: Capitalism. [laughs] That’s a who-o-ole other show, friends. So we’re just going to end… We’re going to end with our last speed round option, which I already know the answer to this one for you, but—mild or spicy?

OD: I think I’m actually medium. Like, compared to most Swedes, I am…

SW: [laughing] Fiery

OD: I think compared to most white people [cracks up] I am…like, medium spicy, but I am not, like—I’m mild to medium. I don’t even think poblanos are that hot to eat. 

SW: Yeah…they’re mild, yeah

OD: but they, like, they attacked me, Sandra. [laughs] I was attacked by the poblanos when I ripped them into pieces with my bare [cracks up] hands

SW: Well, yeah, well, you were clearly not showing them enough respect. It’s really all your fault.

OD: It actually feels better now, if you can kind of tell that

SW: Okay, good

OD: they’re not as—my hands aren’t as pink as they were.

SW: At the beginning, they were, they were fiery. They looked in bad shape, but now they look lovely.

OD: Other than this knuckle.

SW: Yeah, she just gave me the finger. Anyway. Moving on… [cracks up]

OD: I did, I did.

SW: Okay, so I do wanna, I do wanna… Something just occurred to me. I want to make sure: for anyone listening, if you are interested in starting diamond painting and you’re looking for the videos that Olivia said there are many of, please make sure you use the full term in your search. “Diamond Painting”

OD: Look up “diamond painting for beginners,” not “DP for beginners.” 

SW: Do not look up—

OD:  Probably YouTube does not probably have, “DP for beginners” or it got demonetized, but—

SW: But people might just be using a search engine and not in, within YouTube, so I just wanna make sure…you’re doing that.

OD: And if you do not already know the alternate meaning of “DP,” you might want to use an incognito window [both crack up] to search it. Unless you want your algorithm…

SW: That’s right

OD: …the sort of ads you get, to change dramatically.

SW: Yeah…I do not— Don’t do it at work. Please. Don’t do it at work or around minors. It’s just not okay. Now, you’ve been warned, you’ve been told. That’s all we’re gonna say.

OD: And if you get your sister into DP [cracks up] be sure to share photos. 

SW: [cracks up] That’s all we’re going to say. [both crack up] Oh my lord! Olivia Dade. Olivia Dade. Okay, so where can our very intrigued listeners now find out more about you work as a lovely romance author?

OD: I’m at oliviadade.com, so o-l-i-v-i-a-d-a-d-e-dot-com. The only social media I’m on is Bluesky because I have major issues with all the other major platforms. But honestly, I’m not on Bluesky as much as I have been because I found that social media was not helping. I have chronic depression, particularly seasonal depression, and being on social media was making that worse.

SW: [quietly] Yeah

OD: So I’m on… As much as I really dearly miss my friends on social media, I’m spending less time on there. The time that I spent on there, a lot of it I’m spending in some really heavy, like, like, really serious, like, DP sessions. 

[both crack up]

SW: O-o-kay-y… As always, friends, I’m going to try and include as many relevant links, and appropriate links as I can in the episode show notes. I also have a—

OD: You can also include some inappropriate links. 

SW: [laughs] I mean—no, no. [dramatically]I shan’t… And then, of course, I also have a podcast page on my website, and my website is sgwong.com and I will have links on there as well. So thank you very much everybody for joining us. Of course, thank you Olivia, too. So lovelies, until next time, create joy for yourself and others, however works for you because…we contain multitudes.

OD: Thank you for having me and thank you for listening.

[jazzy jumpin’ music]

SW: We Contain Multitudes is on The Incomparable network of smart and funny pop culture podcasts where members can access exclusive podcasts and a wonderful community. Find out more at theincomparable.com. 

Special thanks, as always, to Erika Ensign, our editrix extraordinaire of Castria Communications. Award-winning excellence in podcast production and media solutions. Check them out at wearecastria.com.

[music fades]

Robotic voice: The incomparable podcast network. Become a member and support this show today. theincomparable.com/members

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SHOW NOTES:

Other:

  • DMC is an embroidery thread company.
  • Washi tape is multi-purpose masking tape in vibrant colours and decorative designs.

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ICYMI: What does it mean to be famous? – https://sgwong.com/blog/what-does-it-mean-to-be-famous/