This was one of my earliest interviews, in November 2025. Jenny’s frankness had us each sharing some personal insights about joy, and also, not coincidentally, about the roller-coaster ride of being a professional writer.
As usual, I’ve edited this transcript to be faithful to our conversation, and left off some extraneous noises and repetitions to help things along.
Show notes are included after this transcript. (If you somehow stumbled across this post without knowing about the podcast episode, hi! Here’s a handy link to find the interview on the web.)
TRANSCRIPT:
[jazzy jumpin’ music]Sandra Wong: Hello and welcome to We Contain Multitudes, the casual interview show with famous and accomplished guests who share the geek-outs, hobbies, and interests which they might not necessarily be known for. I am your host, Sandra Wang, and today I’m so thrilled to be joined by Jennifer Hillier. Hi, Jennifer.
[So, I stick with the more formal version of her name throughout this because I’d forgotten to ask if I could say “Jenny” like I usually do, casually.]
Jennifer Hillier: Hello, my friend. Thank you so much for inviting me here. I’m so excited.
SW: Thank you so much for saying yes. I’m always— Every time I share this wild idea with [laughs] with someone to invite them, I’m like, it’s 50/50 if they say, That sounds great! [Jennifer laughs] Or they say—they never reply. [both laugh] So I’m so thrilled. I’m so thrilled you said yes. So let me just read the little bio I wrote up. Okay, everybody, in case you didn’t know, Jennifer Hillier is known by readers as a bestselling author of dark, riveting psychological thrillers with multiple award nominations: the Anthonys, the Macavity, the Los Angeles Book Prize, anyone? Her books are found on many, many best-of lists, and she is even in the Library Reads Hall of Fame. I am not jealous. [Jennifer chuckles] Oh, and there’s also a Thriller Award in there and, translations of her books in 23 languag—[misspeaks] languages and counting. To other authors, though, Jennifer is simply one of the sweetest people we’ve ever met. True story. Absolutely. [laughs] Thank you so much for being here.
JH: Aw, thank you, thank you.
SW: Yeah.
JH: It’s always so funny listening to your stuff be read out. It’s, it’s, I’m so embarrassed by it. [laughs]
SW: Oh, you mean all the awards?
JH: …
SW: Whyyy?
JH: No. Kind of.
SW: Yeah.
JH: I don’t kno-o-ow. I’m working on that in therapy, actually. [Sandra laughs] Where all my guilt comes from. There’s so much guilt.
SW: Wow.
JH: So… But, yeah, thank you for that. That was so nice.
SW: I’m glad you liked it. [both laugh] So, for people listening, I unveil these little—my guests do not know what I say about them
JH: No.
SW: [both laugh] until they hear at the same time as you do. So it’s nice to know I haven’t offended anyone yet.
JH: No-o-o-o
SW: Okay, so that’s what people know you for. What do you want to talk about with us today?
JH: What do I want to talk about? You know, I like that you asked me to think of things that bring me joy because as I was thinking about it, I had a hard time [laughs] figuring out what brings me joy.
SW: Yeah.
JH: I think I’m so focussed, especially the last few years, on getting one foot in front of the other and doing the things that need to be done that I haven’t… It’s been a while since I really stopped and asked myself that question.
SW: Yeah.
JH: And I need to because it’s… I don’t know when the last time I felt truly, truly joyful and…and I think it was probably before I got published, but when I was trying to get published.
SW: Oh, wow.
JH: I think that was because there was no…there was nothing to lose.
SW: Right.
JH: I mean, do you remember those days? [Sandra laughs] When you were just starting out and, and you’re just writing and you have no—you’re laughing because it is, it’s traumatic and stressful, but also… I think when I look back on it now, I don’t think I appreciated the freedom of being able to just be new at something
SW: Ahh
JH: with no expectations and no, no deadlines and no one asking when the next book is coming out, and you’re just writing because you love it. I’m trying so hard to recapture that.
SW: Right.
JH: And I think going forward, I’ll do a better job, but I haven’t felt that in a while. So…
SW: Wow.
JH: Yeah.
SW: Well, I will say, it’s complicated being a professional author.
JH: Yeah. Yes.
SW: It really is because every time, for me, anyway, every time I start a new project [sighs] it’s [Jennifer laughs] you know, it’s this blend of, ‘wow, anything’s possible’ with ‘oh…I suck.’ And also—
JH: Oh God. [laughs] So much.
SW: Oh, so how do I, how do I do this? Do I even know what to do? What am I doing? What am I doing? Like, the number of times what am I doing comes up. But at the same time, we can’t stop.
JH: No.
SW: It’s just… It’s, it’s [laughs, a little helplessly] it drives us, writing stories. So, you know, we’re a little bit off-kilter, and I think that’s fine. I am glad, though, that I have motivated you to think about joy, because that’s the whole point of this podcast show.
JH: Yeah
SW: I just
JH: Yeah
SW: I just want to bring more joy into the world. So, for you, what did you settle on for something that doesbring you joy, even though it’s—and I really appreciate your honesty, that it’s been difficult because I think you’re not alone in that.
JH: Well, I could go with the light-hearted answer, I could go with the deep answer. So, which, which do you think? [cracks up] Which do you think would work better for you?
SW: Whichever one right now you feel brings you joy.
JH: Okay. So…I’ll answer it in two parts, if that’s okay.
SW: Okay, yeah.
JH: So the deep, the deeper answer, which we don’t have to explore, but the deeper answer would be the thing that brings me joy is the act of writing.
SW: Yeah.
JH: When you’re in your pyjamas and you are drinking whatever caffeinated beverage gets you through the writing session, and you’re just putting words on a page. Which is something I think most writers have done since we were little.
SW: Yeah.
JH: That brings me so much joy. The joy of writing a story. The joy of figuring out what comes next. To this day, that is my—that’s my safe space. That’s my heart. That feels like my life’s purpose, even after all this time. And it’s joyful. It’s the stuff that happens around it and after it
SW: Right [laughs]
JH: that stresses me out.
SW: Right.
JH: But the act of just writing is…is joyful. And that’s the deep answer.
SW: Yeah, that’s
JH: The light-hearted answer—
SW: That’s beautiful.
JH: Thank you.
SW: Thank you.
JH: The light-hearted answer would be…getting things organized. [Sandra chuckles] I, I and not that I enjoy cleaning because I don’t. I actually really don’t like cleaning, but I like things to look a certain way and be in a certain spot. And I am proud when I get things organized and it stays like that. And so, organization, especially of infinitely messy things, like my closet
SW: [laughs] Really?
JH: where I can’t ever find anything. It brings me joy. There’s a, there’s an immediate sense of gratification from that.
SW: Yeah. [Jennifer laughs] Oh my goodness, so do you—
JH: [laughing] It’s like the Marie Kondo of it all.
SW: Yeah. Well, I was
JH: Right?
SW: going to ask you, like, how…how deeply do you get into organizing?
JH: I’ve gotten kind of deep now. And so, this is the first time I’ve ever told anyone about this, but there is an app that I downloaded called Stylebook. And you basically can use it to create an inventory of your wardrobe, of your clothes.
SW: Right
JH: And you can either take pictures of your stuff or you can upload photos from, you know, online shopping or whatever. And you can put in how much you paid for something, what size, what the fabric is, what the color is. [both chuckle] And using this you can create your outfits. But, mainly what I do is, I use it for packing. It makes packing for an event easier because then I know what I want to bring. Like, do those jeans go with those boots—anyway, yes.
SW: [laughs] Right.
JH: But also, it just helps me not buy so much. Because I find I tend to buy the same—I don’t know if you do this as a woman, but we buy the same stuff over and over again. You know, like, how many pairs of wide-leg, like, blue jeans do we need? Clearly, I have—
SW: No comment. [laughs] No comment.
JH: I had so many, like, what am I looking for here? It’s not magic. But it helps me identify, you know, when I’ve bought too many things and it keeps me organized, and I don’t lose things in my closet anymore.
SW: Right.
JH: So, because I can see it in an app on my phone that, this is everything I own is here, categorized. And so it’s so—I don’t want to say, like, anal, but it is kind of anal [both crack up]
SW: We do not judge here on the show. So okay, this does beg the question, okay? How large is your closet?
JH: It’s not large. So, that’s the thing. I don’t—it’s a very small closet and I can’t fit in everything I own all at the same time.
SW: Right.
JH: So, I switch things out seasonally because it is a small closet, and that’s when things get lost. It’s like, I thought I had a sweater and I put it away for the summer, and now I can’t find it. Maybe I never owned it. [Sandra laughs] I have no idea now, but my Stylebook app will tell me, yes, you do have that sweater
SW: [laughing] Oh my goodness
JH: and you better go look for it. I know! I know, but as a, as a person who does a lot of online shopping, it’s easy to get, to lose track of what you’ve bought. It’s terrible, really terrible. But it does bring me joy to stay organized. [laughs lightly]
SW: That is so funny. Well [chuckling] I mean, not to, like, get psychological about it, but were you like this as a child? [laughing]
JH: No, no, I wasn’t. I was very messy as a kid, like, very disorganized. My mother was very frustrated with how messy I was. And, and now the older I get… Like, I’m a Leo, but I’m on the cusp of Virgo. And from what I’ve read, I don’t know a lot about it, but Virgos are very fastidious [Sandra laughs] and very particular. And the older I get, the more Virgo I get about things being a certain way. And also too, when I’m writing, if I can’t, if something is out of place, I can’t finish my sentence. Like, if I notice that a pillow is crooked in the living room…
SW: Ohh
JH: I’ll have to straight—it’s awful—I’ll have to straighten it or else it will bug me ’cause I’ll know that it’s crooked.
SW: Yeah
JH: So, it matters not at all [Sandra cracks up] but it will occupy that fraction of a 1% in my brain, that I need to be working…
SW: Yeah
JH: and I will have to go fix it. Or else I’ll, in the back of my mind, think about it.
SW: Oh. Okay, so we’re going to digress a tiny bit because I am a Virgo. [both laugh]
JH: Okay!
SW: I am a Virgo,
JH: Okay, so you know! Okay.
SW: And I do share that and also— okay, we’re also just gonna say
JH: Yep, so you tell me—
SW: this disclaimer. The disclaimer is, like, everybody is different. I have friends who are also Virgos who are nothing like me. We are nothing alike. We just happen to be born in that same,
JH: Right
SW: you know, 30-ish days.
JH: Yes.
SW: That’s it. So we’re not saying this is the end-all be-all. [both laugh] And, at the same time, yes, I do find I share that trait, that I like to have things a certain way. And, and now that I am middle-aged, I have learned [Jennifer laughs] for my own mental health, I have learned to be a little more relaxed about that.
JH: Yes, and that’s very important.
SW: At the same time [laughs] when you said, ‘That pillow’s crooked, I can’t write’? I felt that, sister. [both crack up] I felt that. So, and also, you know, I have, I have had to work on it. Like, to tell myself, okay, don’t do that thing now, that, you know, like, organizing the kitchen. I don’t need to do that now. I’m on deadline. So it is [laughs] it, it’s
JH: Yes.
SW: It’s actually a thing and I joke about it but I, I—my family knows I call it “Big Virgo Energy.” Like, that was like [Jennifer cracks up] You know, and sometimes I’m just like, it’s just Big Virgo Energy. I just need to do this thing right now, even though I’m in the middle of something else, because I can’t stop thinking about that, that the…the piece of artwork that is crooked on the wall. [both laugh] I
JH: [laughing] That is unacceptable, though.
SW: Yes. I will be, I will be the person in—
JH: [chuckling] Must be straightened.
SW: Yes. In a public place. I will straighten the thing. I have done it.
JH: Yeah
SW: I do it
JH: Yeah
SW: It’s a small enough thing I can do. It’s not going to…mmmm, it doesn’t cost me anything to do the small thing. [both laugh] And it’s, it settles my brain. So, I do feel I have that sometimes and I do think sometimes we need to work on when to give in to it and when to
JH: Absolutely
SW: let it go.
JH: I know, I know. [pause] And right now we’re, like, we’re rewatching Friends. I haven’t watched Friends in a million years,
SW: Yeah
JH: but they have all the episodes right on Crave, which is here in Canada. And I used to always think I was a Rachel. I thought I was a Rachel
SW: Right
JH: back when the show was on. I think everyone thought they were Rachel.
SW: [laughing] Not me. Not me.
JH: No? Oh, you never, oh you knew? I never knew that I wasn’t a Rachel. I’m completely almost 99.9%—a Monica.
SW: A Monica.
JH: It’s— Wow. It’s like, I can see myself in her.
SW: Yeah.
JH: Honestly, it’s, it’s eerie watching it back, going, How did, how did I not know that I was like this? [laughs]
SW: [laughing] And actually, I felt like, on my worst, on my worst days, I’m a Monica and Chandler together. [both crack up]
JH: [laughing] But they got married…
SW: I know, yeah, I would have been their child. [laughs] Yeah, I would say.
JH: Oh, you would, you would have been.
SW: Oh, dear. Okay. So, like, do you organize, you know, do you bring that organizing—is that, like, something you do in your spare time, too?
JH: I think, and yeah…I think it must come from a place of wanting to feel a sense of control, because what we do as writers is so…not controllable. We can’t control how well our books do or…
SW: Yeah
JH: And it takes so long to write a book, and you never know what you’re going to get at the end. So maybe it’s a way of—like, was I like this before I was a writer? I’m not sure I was as deep into it as I am now, and maybe it’s just the stuff that I can control that I try to control. But it, it’s kind of an ongoing thing, you know, and I, and I can hear my, myself nagging my kid to put his stuff away the minute he walks in the door and I’m like, Am I really going to tell him that? Because he’s coming at me for a hug [Sandra laughs] Like, let him hug you and then nag him to put his backpack away. Like, c’mon.
SW: [laughing] Priorities.
JH: You know, priorities. And I tell myself that. Like, okay, we’re, sometimes we’re hugging and, I mean, he’s 11, he gives the best hugs. And I’m looking at the backpack on the floor while I’m hugging him, and I’m like, Stop thinking about that. Like, he [groans in frustration]
SW: Yeah.
JH: So, I’m stepping on my own joy because it’s joyful when you’re a mum, to be hugged by your child.
SW: Yeah.
JH: And so again, it, it is something that I, you know, that, that I have to work on. Especially now that I’m in my own middle-age years. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life thinking about backpacks when I could be enjoying hugs.
SW: That’s right.
JH: But, yeah, it is. It is. Yeah, I think it’s pretty prevalent. I don’t— Like, in the morning when I get up, I make the bed before I even leave the bedroom. Doesn’t matter how badly I have to pee, doesn’t matter. I’m not stepping foot outside that bedroom without the bed being made.
SW: [laughing] Right.
JH: Even if there’s a small possibility later I might want to go back in it for a nap, I’ll still make it first. [laughs]
SW: Right. You know, and that’s okay, and that’s okay. But I think one of the things that, that I think about when I think about joy, and what brings, you know, everybody—individually, respectively—joy is…part of that, I think is, whatever it is that allows us to be present in the moment. And that’s what I’m hearing. That’s what I’m, you know, relating to.
JH: That’s a great way to frame it.
SW: Yeah.
JH: But that is a, that’s a really great way to frame it, because it does bring me a sense of small accomplishment when I see a neatly made bed.
SW: Yes.
JH: It’s one thing that I have done that day, you know. I like starting my day that way. Makes the whole bedroom look neater when the bed is made and yeah…I mean, there is, there’s, there is joy in that. Is that a healthy joy? Is that the best joy that I can come up with? I don’t know, but there is joy…
SW: Right.
JH: in feeling like I did something, you know, that makes the house look good. [both laugh]
SW: And so, I mean, that relates to, like, for those of us—ahem—who sometimes might focus on the wrong things, you know, in the moment.
JH: Yeah
SW: It can remind us, like, just think about what you’re doing right now, which is being in a hug.
JH: Yes.
SW: You know, and like—
JH: Yeah
SW: Everyone, that’s one of the best joys in the world is those—
JH: It is!
SW: hugs from loved ones where you just—you don’t have to be anywhere, you don’t have to think about anything
JH: Nope
SW: You don’t have to think about getting something right or, you know, making a mistake. You just have to be in the moment with, yeah, that loved one
JH: In the moment.
SW: and hugging, you know, with that affection? That, I don’t know, I think that’s something to aspire to because it sounds so easy. But it’s clearly so hard because you’re in that hug and you’re staring at the backpack. [laughs]
JH: You are, and I, and I worry that I, I’m living my life and looking…backwards, if that makes sense. And you don’t realize something is joyful until you’re out of that joyful moment, and then you’re thinking about it later and you’re like, That was so great. And then realizing, Did I realize it was great in the moment? Or am I just realizing it now that it’s passed?
SW: Yeah.
JH: And so, again, stuff to work on. But I don’t want to live my life realizing it was a great life after the fact,
SW: After the fact
JH: and not having realized it when it was actually happening.
SW: Well, and I would say not having, you know, just, respectfully, not having experienced it as being great in the moment.
JH: As being great. Yeah, yeah.
SW: Do you think, too, that there’s something about being a writer that you automatically step back and distance yourself from a given moment? Because maybe part of your brain is thinking about writing it or, you know, describing it.
JH: Possibly, possibly, because we are observers, right?
SW: Yeah
JH: We can’t help that. It’s very difficult to turn that off to, to observe everything that’s happening because all of that fuels our work. There was only— I remember having a conversation. I was at a, at a dinner with a few writer friends, and the subject came up where we were talking about, what was the best year of your life to date? And…you know, went around the table, one friend said that when she turned 30. Because she had a job she really liked, she was still single, but she had bought her own condo, and she felt so proud of herself. And she was traveling a lot, and she really liked working. And it was just—in her mind, that was a great year.
SW: Yeah.
JH: And when it came my… When it was my turn to answer the question, it hit me. I think I’m in my best year. And this was 2022 and my last book had just come out, and the launch had gone really well, and… I was in a happy place at home, and we had finished a home renovation, and the house looked pretty and it was just, I think I’m having my best year. But if that question hadn’t come up, I don’t think I would have realized I was in that “best year.”
SW: Right.
JH: And it really was— I look back on it now, and 2022 was such a good year, you know. But I would like to recognize that more. I think that we owe it to ourselves to recognize when we’re happy. But I think there is so much, I don’t know… I think I wonder whether being so happy, does that somehow, I don’t know, take away from other people’s happiness? Is there only so much happiness to go around that if you’re happy, that means someone else doesn’t get it?
SW: Right.
JH: You know what I mean?
SW: Yeah.
JH: And so again, that’s something to work on. But I, I have a lot of those types of feelings where I feel happy, and then I feel bad about being happy.
SW: Yes.
JH: And then, I don’t necessarily want to tell people that I’m happy, because what if they’re not in a happy place and it makes them feel bad somehow?
SW: Right, right
JH: But then I diminish the happiness, and then I’m not sure how that helps anybody. But in my mind, that’s, that’s my pattern.
SW: Yeah, that’s just this repeating cycle.
JH: [deadpan] I need advice.
SW: [laughs] You need
JH: Sandra, gimme advice. [laughs]
SW: Okay. [laughing] This is…this is what I got, my friend. This is what I got. Which is…
JH: Okay
SW: Happiness is not a finite—it’s infinite. It’s infinite. This is my philosophy of life, right?
JH: Okay
SW: Happiness is infinite. We can have happiness at any time. It’s not a thing that we accomplish. It’s not a thing that we can own. It’s just an emotion like any other.
JH: Yeah
SW: And so, we can’t be happy all the time because we’re human beings—hello.
JH: No…yeah
SW: We can’t. We cannot hold any one emotion forever. Ever. Right? That’s impossible. But I think, you know, like, part of my philosophy is if we can cultivate a practice of joy, which is—
JH: Yeah
SW: what I try, then we get better and better at recognizing when it’s happening, at experiencing it in the moment, at sharing it,
JH: Mm-hm
SW: at creating it. And, like, what more do we want? Like, we’re not going to be happy all the time, like, you and I—
JH: No…
SW: So, you spoke of 2022 and that amazing book, which, I always get the title wrong, but I think it’s, What We Do in the Dark.
JH: Things We Do in the Dark,
SW: Things We Do in the Dark. Aww. See?
JH: Although What We Do in the Dark was almost the title, so. [both laugh]
SW: Okay, so Things We Do in the Dark. So, that was your last publication?
JH: Yeah.
SW: And, I kind of think of us in this way is, that was also the the year of my last book out. And my book also has “In the Dark” in the title. [laughs]
JH: Oh yeah, that’s right.
SW: That’s right. So the fun fact is we had two books. Mine was In The Dark We Forget, and I remember
JH: That’s right, that’s right.
SW: I remember we tried to, like, do a book event together based on the fact that we both had “in the dark.” It didn’t work out.
JH: Yeah.
SW: Maybe next time, who knows? [Jennifer laughs] We’ll have another title. We’ll have another title. Something in the same—but anyway,
JH: Yeah
SW: the point being, like, and I have felt since then, like, Ugggh I need to get another book out. I need to get another book out. I’ve been writing the whole time, you know, but it’s, it’s not happened yet. So. But in the midst—
JH: I feel that.
SW: in the midst of that [chuckles] I knew you would, sister.
JH: Yeah, I feel that.
SW: Yeah. In the midst of that feeling, I’ve also continued to cultivate joy. Like, you know? Beause…I don’t want to pin all of my happiness on one thing,
JH: Yes
SW: which is,
JH: Yes
SW: Do I have a book out?
JH: Yes
SW: You know? or on
JH: I feel that.
SW: some other thing, like, Is it going to do well? What does doing well even mean, right?
JH: I know. What does it mean, honestly? Honestly, what does it mean?
SW: Yeah.
JH: No, that’s—I get that, I get it. And there have been times where I’ve, like, you know, I, so much of my sense of self…
SW: Yeah
JH: and my concept of my value in the world has to do with writing. And I’ve long known that. I’ve known that for a really long time. But when it’s not going well. Oh, wow. [chuckles]
SW: Yeah.
JH: When the writing isn’t happening the way that you want it to happen, when the book’s not coming together, when it’s been four years since you’ve had a title out… Where is your self-worth then? Because if it’s all wrapped up in this one thing that you do and you’re just struggling with that one thing right now…
SW: Yeah
JH: you have to figure out what’s left. And I think that has been a journey to realize, well, if I’m not writing books, is it, you know…am I still a good person? Am I still successful? Am I still a good mom, am I still a good friend? And the answer those things is, yes.
SW: Yes!
JH: But there is something about being a writer that makes all of that better. But I would like it not to mean as much. And, and I feel almost blasphemous saying that because we’re supposed to want it and care, and I do want it and I do care. But boy, it cannot be everything because you cannot control the outcome of those things.
SW: Yeah.
JH: You know, we can write the best books we can, and that’s our only job, is to write the best book we can. But where it goes and who reads it and who loves it, who hates it, how sales are doing—zero control over those things.
SW: That’s right.
JH: And so, if you’re putting all of your sense of accomplishment and self-worth in that publishing basket—Yikes.
SW: Yeah.
JH: And that’s, that’s been an interesting lesson to learn because I, I have to redefine…what success means. And I think success is joy. I think success is, happiness and being present and the relationships you build that are healthy.
SW: Right.
JH: It’s not what I thought it was. It was just easier to picture a mansion and a Ferrari. [Sandra laughs] Not that I did, but you know what I mean.
SW: Yeah
JH: Those things are easier to imagine, that success looks like that. But I don’t think that’s what success is at all anymore.
SW: Yeah
JH: I think it’s fulfillment. And I think it’s the act of doing what you love, regardless of where it goes. And this is why it’s good getting old, okay? [Sandra laughs] Because sometimes I feel so ancient. You know how you’re, we’re getting older. Okay, let’s just start there.
SW: Yeah.
JH: I’m 51.
SW: Yep
JH: And turning 50 sucked. I’m not going to pretend that I liked that number. I did not like that number. But there is wisdom in getting older.
SW: Right
JH: And I don’t miss the person I was when I was in my 20s. [Sandra chuckles] I really don’t, you know.
SW: Yeah
JH: I don’t. I miss the collagen that used to be in my face when I was in my 20s. [both laugh] But I don’t miss all the fear and the not knowing, and the lessons to be learned. That, you know, there was so much confusion in my 20s and 30s, and it’s better. And so, there’s joy in—as much as I never thought I would say these words—there’s joy in getting older. There’s joy in aging because, boy, you learn so much.
SW: That’s right.
JH: You learn so much. And I’m a much wiser person than I used to be.
SW: I would say too, that we, we learn differently as we age.
JH: I hope.
SW: Yeah, right we hope to. Though the lessons you’re learning [chuckles] we’re learning in our 20s, we…reacted to them in the way that we did because we were in our 20s or
JH: When we were young.
SW: 30s or whatever. Right?
JH: Yep, yeah.
SW: But I think one thing I wanted to touch on is what you were talking about, about, you know, you can’t, you can’t… You’re redefining success. So, one of the things—my, like, shortcut thoughts about how I stay [chuckles, self-deprecating] grounded and level as an author, a working author, is, that I am not my books.
JH: Yeah.
SW: I am not my writing. And, like, that, you know, if we broaden that, is really the premise of this entire show, which is called We Contain Multitudes, hello. [chuckles]
JH: Multitudes.
SW: Right? We are…we are never
JH: Mm-hm
SW: just one thing. Nobody is ever just one thing. And so, I love that this conversation, you know, we’re really exploring that. And
JH: Yeah
SW: how does joy fit into all of that for each of us?
JH: Yeah
SW: And it’s different.
JH: Yeah
SW: And I love that you’re using an app to help you organize [both crack up] because, like, no judgment. It’s like, whatever, whatever works for each of us, you know?
JH: Yeah.
SW: To find, to find joy. As long as it’s not harming another person.
JH: No. Exactly.
SW: I say, a hundred percent. Go for it. Use it. You know, be joyful. [chuckles] Now, I’m going to think of you every time…every day I’ll be thinking, okay, Jennifer’s thinking of what to wear. She’s got her app open. [Jennifer cracks up] That’s, that’s so cool.
JH: Can I just mention to whoever’s listening too, that, yes, I have the Stylebook app, and it’s keeping my clothes organized. And yet, on any daily basis, I am wearing a t-shirt and sweatpants. [cracks up]
SW: Yesssss! My hero.
JH: I have these outfits I can curate in my Stylebook app that I likely will never wear that because—[both crack up] As writers, I don’t have anywhere to go. I work from home.
SW: Yeah
JH: And I don’t like to work out. Actually, I don’t like to work in a coffee shop. I get way too distracted.
SW: Yes, me too.
JH: I do work at home and so I am… I am in, at best, loungewear [Sandra laughs] but likely these gigantic sweatpants and an ill-fitting t-shirt, which is so comfortable. Because that is, that’s how I roll. So it’s, it’s really the curation of a, of a wardrobe I don’t need. [cracks up]
SW: Yeah. But I love that, though. I love that though, because we don’t need to do things for a reason other than
JH: No
SW: they bring us joy.
JH: Yeah. Exactly.
SW: Right? [laughing]
JH: Exactly, exactly. I should stop explaining myself, honestly, but yeah.
SW: I love it. You know what I really love the, the—what I love the most about this conversation is how honest you’re being with us, because it’s [Jennifer laughs] Like, let’s be…let’s be really real. It’s, there’s a lot of pressure on us to put up this front that we’re great, that, you know, the book’s coming [puts on exaggerated excitement] the book’s coming along, and we’re so excited.
JH: Yeah, yes
SW: Dud-duh-duh-duh-da-duh. Right? It’s exhausting. [laughs]
JH: It’s exhausting…
SW: Right? Because— All right, everyone, whatever your career is, you’re gonna have a crap day now and then. You’re gonna have maybe a stretch of crap days, and I—we all know what that feels like. Yeah, so I really appreciate you being honest, that it’s not all [both laugh] it’s not all glam outfits.
JH: It’s not necessarily how it looks on Instagram.
SW: [laughing] Yeah, hello. So, yeah.
JH: Right? You can’t—I mean, we can post those things on Instagram. But it isn’t necessarily how it looks. You know, that’s the highlight reel usually.
SW: Yeah.
JH: And, and life happens when you’re not posting, you know. So it’s, it’s all—and I think that’s what joy is, too. It’s to be found in the spaces you forget to look, I think, you know, the shadows and behind the door and in the cracks and it’s there, you know, but it’s just…I think that we are conditioned not to see it for some reason. At least, I think I am
SW: Right
JH: conditioned not to see it. So I’m teaching myself to look for it more, because I don’t think I ever thought I had to. Because it will find you, but if you’re not there—
SW: [laughing] If you’re not there
JH: [laughing] If it’s knocking on your door, but you’re not answering, right…
SW: Yeah, yeah.
JH: That’s, you know, that’s a bummer because you’ll miss it.
SW: Yeah.
JH: You’ll miss it.
SW: Oh, thank you for that. I’m sure that, I’m sure that’s reached somebody who’s listening, who maybe hadn’t thought of that before.
JH: Yeah.
SW: So, I know we’ve already been talking about lots of joys, but I want to move into the Small Joys, you know, just like a…
JH: Okay
SW: a small thing that you have or you do, that brings you joy, lifts your spirits when you need it in the moment. Do you have something?
JH: In the moment? Yes, I do, I watch—Well, first of all, I again had trouble thinking about what I would answer to this question. So I asked my son, he’s 11: you know, what things do I do that make me happy, that bring me joy? And he said, like, not missing a beat: You watch a lot of makeup and hair videos. [Sandra laughs] And I’m like, I do. Like, I really do.
SW: Yeah.
JH: Like, and you know, when you are watching a lot of videos, you get more of those videos, right?
SW: Yep [laughs]
JH: So you have to be careful how you work with that algorithm. It’ll show you all those things. But now, if I… I’m a lurker on TikTok, but when I’m there, all it does is show me, like, you know, ‘Skincare for women in their 40s,’ you know?
SW: Oh [laughs]
JH: Makeup tutorials. ‘How to add a winged-tip eyeliner if you’re 50.’ And it’s like, okay, show me, because maybe this is different than the face I had when I was in my 20s. [both laugh] And I think I’m attracted to—Like, I love makeup and I could dismiss it and say that, Oh, I’m just a girly girl. I don’t—I think it goes deeper than that. I love makeup because one of my earliest memories is watching—is actually waking up to my mother, putting her makeup on. I used to sleep with, in her bed. I would crawl into her bed in the middle of the night and wake up in her room, and what would wake me up would be the sounds of her compacts clicking, things opening and closing.
SW: Yeah.
JH: Jars being placed on the dresser. And she always, you know, put her makeup on before she went to work and she would transform herself from, you know, a pretty lady, right? into a glamazon. And my mom is, you know, she’s tall. She’s taller than me. She’s five foot eight, leggy. Just, she was always gorgeous. And, and then she would put on her makeup and she would become this powerful, gorgeous woman. And that’s kind of, I think, what makeup always symbolized to me,
SW: Wow
JH: was a way to sort of rise up and face the day. And her whole mantra, and this is probably a generational thing, was, Always put your best face forward, you know. You never know who you’re going to meet.
SW: Yeah.
JH: Never let them see you having a bad day. And, and I get that from her. And I think I love watching hair and makeup tutorials because I think it’s just a way to, to add an element of…confidence when we don’t feel it.
SW: Right.
JH: It’s just a way to kind of put your best self out there, even if you’re, even if you’re faking it until you make it, you know? And I think we all need a little bit of that. And I love watching people transform, you know?
SW: Yes! Yeah, me too.
JH: Wow, she did something different with her wingtip, and now her eyes look like that. That’s cool, you know? [both laugh]
SW: I think, I think there’s something magical in makeup artists because they
JH: Yeah!
SW: they can just change the entire shape. It’s just an optical illusion.
JH: They can change the whole shape with makeup and—
SW: But it’s amazing.
JH: it’s, I actually think if I wasn’t a writer, I would have pursued that as a career.
SW: Oh wow
JH: Because I think I would have, I would have loved doing… There was actually a makeup program at a college near me, and I’m kind of wondering what would have happened if I had done it.
SW: Right.
JH: I probably wouldn’t be a writer, but I love the idea of, doing make up for, you know, for TV or for celebrities or even bridal makeup. Because, boy, you know, you all want to look beautiful on your wedding day. And I love watching before-and-afters and Look at her on her wedding day! She looks like herself, but just that element of glamour, sparkle, you know?
SW: Yeah
JH: But so, I love it, I love it, I think it’s, it’s fun and it’s not meant to be taken too seriously. And you don’t have to make it mean anything other than it brings me joy.
SW: Yeah, that’s wonderful.
JH: You know? I like watching, I like watching a lady who didn’t know she could look like that, you know, look like that for a photo.
SW: Yeah
JH: For her headshot, you know? Doesn’t have to be all the time, but, whenever she wants to show.
SW: That’s so lovely. And it also takes me back to those, all those Oprah segments or Oprah episodes [both laugh] where she did makeovers. Those were really fun. I think we all—
JH: God, I miss those!
SW: love a really good makeover.
JH: I miss those shows. But, you know, can I just say, as an aside? The best Oprah makeover I ever saw was a man.
SW: Yeah
JH: And maybe you remember this episode, but they had a guy that looked…Grizzly—
SW: I know exactly what you’re talking about! [laughs]
JH: Okay, there was a guy that was on the show.
SW: Yes.
JH: He had bushy hair and a long beard, and
SW: That’s right.
JH: dressed in baggy, crappy, sweaty clothes. Whatever. And they polished him up. They cut his hair, they trimmed his face, they shaved his face, put him in a suit, and he comes out and—and of course, it’s a woman. Like, it’s women in the audience, right? Everyone freaked out. [Sandra laughs] And his wife.
SW: Yes. [laughing]
JH: The look on his wife’s face. And Oprah made a crack like, “Someone’s gettin’ lucky tonight.” [both crack up] But I remember thinking, Oh, my God, men can do it too.
SW: Yeah.
JH: You know, he looked incredible. Now, whether that stuck, who knows? But it was fun!
SW: That was so funny. Okay, so here’s a little fun fact. [Jennifer laughs] If—I’m pretty sure I’m remembering the same episode
JH: Yeah
SW: and the same man and the same couple.
JH: Yes
SW: I think he was from…Peace River, Alberta. [laughs]
JH: Oh, stop!
SW: [laughing] I know! [both crack up]
SW: Okay, okay. That is so funny. So, I mean, I might have to look that up. We’ll see, we’ll see.
JH: We’re gonna have to look that up because it was iconic. Because it was really this insane—
SW: [laughing] Okay, I—
JH: transformation, where you didn’t know this man existed underneath all that facial hair. [both crack up]
SW: I will. I will…see if I can find it, and I’ll put it in the show notes.
JH: Yeah. [laughing]
SW: Okay. Thank you for bringing that up.
JH: [laughing] Okay
SW: Okay, so clearly that’s joyful for us. I’m going to move on to our Speed Round, which is—
JH: Okay.
SW: gonna be wrapping up our episode.
JH: I’m ready.
SW: So, this is where I give you a choice of two options. You answer off the top of your head. There’s no second guessing needed. You don’t have to judge what you’re going to say. There’s no—and there’s no right or wrong. It’s just being silly.
JH: Okay.
SW: Ready?
JH: Okay.
SW: Here we go.
JH: Ready.
SW: Popcorn or potato chips?
JH: Potato chips.
SW: Jelly beans or jujubes?
JH: Jelly beans.
SW: Oh, really? I’m surprised. Okay. Sweet or savoury?
JH: [bashfully] Sweet.
SW: [laughs] I’m not surprised. You’re that way. [Jennifer laughs] Okay. Night owl or early bird?
JH: Night owl.
SW: Mm-hmm. Okay, socks or bare feet?
JH: Socks. [Sandra cracks up] You don’t have to think.
SW: I can’t tell if that look was, Oh, I love socks or Oh, I’m a little bit embarrassed.
JH: Because my, my actual instinct would be to say both to every question you’ve asked.
SW: Okay. [both laugh] Which you can!
JH: So my, my gauge metre is like, which one is slightly edging out the other one? So…socks. [both crack up]
SW: Great. I appreciate it. Okay. Ocean voyage or mountain cabin?
JH: Mountain cabin.
SW: Fine dining or drive-thru?
JH: Fine dining. Yeah, I know, don’t judge.
SW: Yeah [laughs]
JH: I like a spendy meal once in a while.
SW: Yeah. Exactly. [both laugh] Okay. And this is the very last one. Mild or spicy?
JH: Spicy.
SW: Yeah.
JH: Yeah, spicy.
SW: I love it.
JH: Even though I’m sniffling and sweating, I like the spice. But yeah.
SW: Yeah. [both crack up] Oh thank you so much, Jennifer, this has been so fun.
JH: Thank you so much. It’s been fun. It’s just good to see your face, my friend.
SW: Aww
JH: Honestly, it’s been way too long. [laughs]
SW: It’s lovely to see your beautifully made-up face, by the way. Did you put makeup on just for me? [laughs]
JH: I did actually.
SW: Oh-h-h!
JH: Or else, I look washed out. [laughs]
SW: I’m so pleased. Okay. Well, thank you again so much for joining me, Jennifer, and for sharing your joys even when they’re difficult.
JH: Thank you, thank you.
SW: I so appreciated that. Okay, so where can people learn more? Can you say the name of the app again?
JH: Stylebook app.
SW: Stylebook app. Great.
JH: Stylebook app. So yeah, download that if you want to see everything on your wardrobe. [both laugh]
SW: Okay, and where can people find out more about you and your work?
JH: My website is jenniferhillierbooks.com, and I’m on Instagram as jenniferhillierbooks and Facebook as Jennifer Hillier Books.
SW: Okay.
JH: And I’m on TikTok as, I think, Jennifer Hillier Books, but I never post [stage whispers] because I’m not sure how. [Sandra laughs] So, I just go there to look at stuff.
SW: Yeah. You know what? I think that we have a lot of lurkers all the time, on every social media platform [Jennifer laughs] and that is totally okay. Okay, so I will try my best to find that Oprah makeover clip
JH: Yes! Yes!
SW: to post in the show notes, but I will also have Jennifer’s links, in the show notes, as I say…they’ll be on the show notes on The Incomparable network. And also, I have a dedicated We Contain Multitudes podcast web page on my website, which is sgwong.com. Thank you, everybody, for joining us. Until next time, create joy for yourself and others however works for you because—we contain multitudes.
[jazzy jumpin’ music]SW: We Contain Multitudes is on The Incomparable network of smart and funny pop culture podcasts where members can access exclusive podcasts and a wonderful community. Find out more at theincomparable.com.
Special thanks, as always, to Erika Ensign, our editrix extraordinaire of Castria Communications. Award-winning excellence in podcast production and media solutions. Check them out at wearecastria.com.
[music fades]Robotic voice: The incomparable podcast network. Become a member and support this show today. theincomparable.com/members
[digital blip sound]SHOW NOTES:
Jennifer’s website
STYLEBOOK app
*Marie Kondo is world-famous for being an organizing expert who encourages people to let go of things that don’t, or no longer, bring them joy.
*I wasn’t able to find a video clip of the makeover we reference, but I did find remnants of a newspaper story in a couple of Canadian newspapers. So, I can make a correction and a clarification: the man was from Pincher Creek, Alberta; the episode is from 2003.
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