Jennifer and I chatted about her nerdy hobby in December 2025. As per usual, I’ve done my best to transcribe as faithfully as I could, but I have left off some of the reaction noises and redundancies. Honestly, nobody needs to read every single “Yeah” I say or every weird chuff I make.
Show notes are included after this transcript. (If you somehow stumbled across this post without knowing about the podcast episode, hi! Here’s a handy link to find the interview on the web.)
TRANSCRIPT:
[jazzy jumpin’ music]Sandra Wong: Hello and welcome to We Contain Multitudes, the casual interview show with famous and accomplished guests who share the geek-outs, hobbies, and interests, which they might not necessarily be known for. I am your host, Sandra Wong, and today I have the pleasure of being joined by my good friend Jennifer J. Chow. Hi, Jen.
Jennifer Chow: Hi.
SW: I’m so glad you’re here. So, a thing that I do is, I read the little bio for our listeners. And you will know, Jen, I didn’t ask you, What do you want me to say? Because, I’m going to say what I want to say, and [laughs]
JC: All right.
SW: hopefully you’ll be okay with it. Okay, here we go. Jennifer J. Chow is in the vanguard of contemporary American cozy authors rejigging and updating the genre for new fans, while still managing to pay homage to classic cozy mystery tropes. By doing so, and doing it well, Jen has gathered a long, long list of accolades, including wins and finalist nominations for the Anthonys, the Lefties, the Agathas and the special Lillian Jackson Browne category Edgar Award for Cozy and Traditional Mysteries. I hope I pronounced that last name right. Sometimes it’s “Brown,” sometimes it’s “Braun.” So my apologies if I did that wrong. And in my humble estimation—doesn’t mean I’m wrong—Jen is a juggernaut and also one of the smartest and kindest people I know and love. Welcome, Jen. I’m so glad you’re here.
JC: Thanks, thanks for having me.
SW: Yeah. Okay, so here’s the moment of truth. What do we get to talk about today with you?
JC: Okay, so we are going to talk about rocks today.
SW: Ya-a-ay! [both laugh] That is definitely—in my mind, that is definitely a niche interest. And that, like [Jennifer laughs] this is totally fulfilling my, like, concept and premise for this show. So, rocks. Okay, let’s go back. Well, how did you get started in, like, an interest in rocks? Did it start when you were a kid?
JC: Okay. So there are…different ways I can answer this.
SW: Okay.
JC: [laughs] So my answer is in three different ways.
SW: Excellent.
JC: So the first way is we actually had, like, a little bit of a rock garden, in our house that I grew up in. And so, we did have, like, a flower bed, but we also had this kind of landscaped rocks area, and I think it was, maybe marble or granite. And I remember playing with those rocks. And so I was like, oh, this is really exciting. And then for some weird reason, one year, my parents were like, you know, we’re all getting the kids these rocks, but they’re the— I don’t know if you remember or if you had this
SW: Yeah
JC: but there were these, like, the hidden rocks where you could, like, have a rock facade, and then you open, like, this door, and you can, like, hide your, like, cash or your keys or whatever in them. [both laugh]
SW: Okay.
JC: So my parents were like, This is a great gift. And so I was like, Oh, that’s kind of cool. And I kind of liked having this, like, stone around. And then the third way was actually in school where I got recruited from…I think it was my elementary… first it was my elementary, and then middle school teachers, to be on the Science Olympiad team.
SW: Right. Ah!
JC: And on the science team, they have a category called Rocks, Minerals and Fossils. And that—I just ended up thrown in that category.
SW: Okay. So can you, like, just estimate how old were you then?
JC: Most of the time that we were competing, I was in middle school. So probably you’re looking at, like, you know, twelve, thirteen…
SW: Okay.
JC: Around there.
SW: Yeah. Okay. So what was it about that? Clearly, at that point—I’m just going to, I’m just going to put myself out there, people may disagree. I don’t know a lot of [laughs] twelve-, thirteen-, or fourteen-year-olds who really love rocks. I know they exist. Of course, they exist. But I don’t personally—I’ve never known anyone who started, you know, getting into rocks at that age. So at that age, I mean, what was it about the rocks, minerals and fossils, you know. And why? Because, of course, some kids would maybe get into fossils, but you got into the rocks. So why was that? [Jennifer chuckles] Do you remember?
JC: I just remember it— So part of the task of that particular category was you had to identify the different types of rocks and, like, and the minerals and, like, what made them…what they consisted of. And like, and there’s, I don’t know, there’s just some, like, little geeky things that I was like, Oh, there’s like a, you know, hardness scale of rock.
SW: Right.
JC: And, and so then you, like, kind of get to, like, figure out the scale and, like, how, what they rank on it and, like, the softness and which ones crumble and which ones are super hard.
SW: Right.
JC: And then they have just so many variations.
SW: Yeah.
JC: I did it with my friend, so we were doing it together. I don’t know how much she enjoyed the rocks, but [both laugh] I was like, Oh, look at all these cool—because it’s, like, day after day, the teacher was just bringing, like, a tray of stuff, and then you would, like, sit there looking at the rocks and trying to figure out. If you were to just look at it and look at the properties, could you figure out, like, what it was?
SW: Right, right. But you were, you were still friends. So clearly, she was okay [both laugh] she was okay with your intense interest in rocks. So, am I right in, oh, remembering—going through the, the data banks right now in my head—that the name of that hardness, there’s a name for that hardness scale, right?
JC; Mm.
SW: And is it…is it Mohr? Like…
JC: Yeah, the Moh scale. M-o-h.
SW: M-o-h. Okay. I added an r. Oops. Sorry to the scientist for whom that was named. [laughs] Okay, so on the Moh, Moh scale, which way is it that’s harder or softer?
JC: So, the lowest is the softest. And I think it’s, like, talc is on the bottom and then, like, diamonds, like at the, like, peak
SW: Is it, like, what’s the—
JC: of hardness.
SW: Yeah. How broad is the scale?
JC: I think it goes up to ten
SW: Okay
JC: if I remember. I think diamond was a ten.
SW: Yeah. So talc is, talc is a one—
JC: [laughs] …clear the cobwebs.
SW: Yeah. No, no, there will not be a quiz, I promise. [both laugh] I was just really curious. Okay… Okay, so then what about high school? Did you just, like, do this on your own then, or did you do Science Olympiad in high school?
JC: Oh my gosh, I, so I actually continued.
SW: Ya-a-a-y, good for you.
JC: But being the nerd that I was, I was in many different things. Well, besides literary avenues, which I, I went down as well, because I did…I did yearbook and I did—we had a literary magazine, so I did that.
SW: Oh, wow.
JC: I was co-editor on the newspaper. as well.
SW: Yeah.
JC: So I did all that
SW: Yeah
JC: but I kept the Science Olympiad. Until I, I also did what’s called Academic Decathlon.
SW: Okay.
JC: And so, it’s where you have teams of students and from different, like—how should I— like, GPA levels. And then, and then they combine together and we do different topics. But there’s ten, there’s ten subjects. So that’s decathlon. And so, I was trying to do both. And then eventually, I had to drop the science because I couldn’t do [laughs] Like, I couldn’t do it all.
SW: Okay. So then did you, like, did you specialize as an Academic Decathlete?
JC: I, I didn’t, but… Well, I was better at—they have like a, like, literature category.
SW: Okay.
JC: But I think I was way, I did way better on the science team than I did as a Decathlete because that was everything. It was, like, math, science. It was even like, interviews
SW: Right.
JC: Spe—speeches. And I just
SW: Right
JC: Was not as good of an all-around [both laugh] like, studier.
SW: Yeah, that sounds, that sounds…pretty intense. Okay. Yeah. So, like, did you keep up? Like, do you collect rocks? Like, when one says, I’m interested in rocks, does that mean you’re automatically, you’re a collector?
JC: Well, I am a collector. And…half of it’s, like, unintentional, I think. [laughs] So, like, when we moved to our place here, I didn’t know that they also had, like, kind of like a rock space [laughs] in this home.
SW: Yeah.
JC: But then I was like, Hey, we got rocks! And I’m sure they did it as a landscaping tool because it’s, like, cheaper than, like, lots and lots and lots of grass.
SW: Yeah.
JC: And so half of it’s accidental, half of it I do collect one… So I have, funnily, I have a friend, a friend and…her husband…and her husband is like, literally, a rockhound, who goes and mines for rocks and enters them into competitions. Like, he’s had stuff entered into, like, our local regional fair and won prizes for it? [laughs]
SW: Wow.
JC: So, like, he’s like the expert. So I have some, some…some from their family and then, you know, recently I’ve been collecting. So we have these Little Free Libraries around here.
SW: Right, yeah, yeah.
JC: And, and sometimes they have these kindness rocks. And some of them are, like, painted. And they’ll have, like, a nice picture or a nice word and, and if they’re like, Please take a rock, then I’m like, Ooh which one should I choose? [both laugh]
SW: Okay. So you’re not a purist. You’re fine if someone paints rocks. [laughs]
JC: [mock serious] I’m not a purist.
SW: So. Is your friend, the rockhound, is he a purist? Like, Do not paint rocks. That kind of—
JC: You know, I don’t know, but he has, like, so many, and they’re, like, they are, like, pure. Like, oh, this is this and this is that. And they’re all labeled and his wife, who I’m, like, good friends with, she’s like,
SW: Yeah
JC: Ummmm we have just so many. [both laugh]
SW: Well, I mean, that’s the thing with collecting anything, right? Where do you have the space? Where do you have the space? So, first of all, now we know…formal terminology. Rockhound. [both laugh] Now I know that I will, I will file that away in the databanks. And also, I, I had no idea there were competitions, honestly. So what [Jennifer laughs] can you…can you say a little bit more? Like what… How do you, how do you compete? How do you judge a rock competition? [laughing]
JC: That’s a good question. I mean, I remember going to, like, our fair and, like, going to that section, and I— Like, literally, there’s just displays of rocks and they’re labeled. So I don’t know if it’s like…the specimen and the, if it represents, like, what that particular kind of rock is or how, I don’t know, beautifully displayed it is, right?
SW: [laughs] Right. [both laugh] I’m just imagining, like, what, what’s the rubric? Like, the epitome of, you know…
JC: Yeah
SW: whatever it might be…the epitome of rock-ness in that category. [both laugh] Wow. Okay. Well, how do you choose? How do you choose what rocks you want in your collection?
JC: I don’t know, I just like, like the aesthetics, usually. [laughs]
SW: Okay. Yeah, yeah.
JC: And so it has to have, like, like a certain look that I don’t already have. And mostly it has to be, like, semi-portable. [laughs] Like, I can’t have these huge, like, boulders that I’m bringing back [both laugh]
SW: No boulders. Right.
JC: Imagine my family would be like, Um…no, thanks.
SW: Where do you even put it?
JC: Yeah, it looks like, it all ends out, like, in our yard or something, but [laughs] yeah, aesthetics. And sometimes, it’ll be like a place. So I actually—it’s not a, really, it’s not a rock, but I actually like sea glass, as well.
SW: Okay.
JC: So that… When I go to the beaches, which is probably… [laughs] I guess, environmentally not great because it’s, like, literally glass that’s been, you know, polished, by the waves.
SW: Ri-i-ight, right.
JC: Right? But I— There are places where there used to be, like, factories and things like that. It’s not as common now to find them on the shores, I think. But I do kind of like that sort of, kind of glassy sheen look, as well. So I do like sparkly.
SW: And I’m guessing there are rocks that are sparkly, but you just find them, right?
JC: There are.
SW: You just find them in the wild?
JC: Some of them, but some of them, you can go— You actually have to go to, like, gem shops and stuff to actually find ones. If you want something that’s really polished, it looks great. Like, I used to have a bunch of, like, pyrite, which is, like, the fake…gold.
SW: Right. Yeah
JC: But you’d have to, like, actually buy that because I think it’s really hard to find, like, just, oh, you know, you don’t, like, walk by and like, randomly [both laugh]
SW: Right. Well, okay. So are you…does that mean… I’m guessing, like, with any, like, hobby, there’s like different, maybe different camps. Some who would prefer, like your rockhound, your friend’s husband the rockhound, who goes mining looking for specimens.
JC: Mm-hm
SW: But I get the feeling that you maybe do it in a more casual way, and you don’t… Do you buy, do you prefer to buy specimens? Or do you like to just find them in the…in the wild, so to speak?
JC: I’m pretty eclectic. [laughs]
SW: A-a-h.
JC: So I, I think I’ve gone through… Well, I would say I used to buy them more. So, like, I think when I was, like, a kid, I would be, like, Ooh, the souvenir, let me get, like, this bag of, like, polished stones, right?
SW: Right.
JC: And so that would be me, and then—and geodes. I really liked geodes as a kid because you could, like, crack them open and look inside. And then, I think as an adult, I’m more of, Hmm let me just, you know, chance upon a rock, and if I like it, and I can actually take it because some you can’t, right? You want to leave them. Then I will do that, as well.
SW: Yeah. Okay. So, what do you mean, some you can’t and you have to leave them?
JC: So there are certain areas that are protected, right. Like, especially if you’re in…different nature areas, then you can’t, you, you know, it’s like don’t, don’t take anything, you know.
SW: Right. So even—
JC: Don’t leave anything, and don’t take anything.
SW: Like a national park, for example.
JC: Yeah. Yeah. It just depends on the park.
SW: Really? [pause] I’m, I’m sure there’s some people who are a little less scrupulous. They
JC: Yeah, yeah, I’m sure. [both laugh]
SW: probably take rocks. Okay, okay. So, what do you do with all these rocks that you’re finding? Okay. First of all, the rocks that you used to buy as a, as a younger collector, do you still have them all?
JC: I don’t think so. I feel like they got lost when we did moves or downsizing, so I don’t think I have… I can’t even remember if I have any of my younger, childhood ones… I do have seashells, oddly enough, [both laugh] from my childhood.
SW: Right
JC: Maybe my, my parents didn’t keep them. Maybe they were, like, There’re a lot of other rocks. [laughs]
SW: Yeah. Well, did you keep them in your room as a kid? You didn’t, like, put them out in the yard or—because clearly, then your parents would’ve just left them, right?
JC: Yeah. No. They’re in my room as a kid. And then as an adult, interestingly, they’re both. So, some are outside and some are inside.
SW: Right. Okay. Oh, I did want to ask. What about the rock that’s actually a hidden storage [both laugh] secret keeper? Do you still have that?
JC: No, I think my, my—I think it got donated. They were like, Okay, done. [both laugh]
SW: What did that look like? I mean…just like a gray rock?
JC: Yeah, it literally looks, like, a gray rock. And then, like, if you flip it around, it has, like, a little, like, swivel door. [laughs]
SW: Yeah.
JC: Like, it’s usually for keys. And then people, like, put their keys and then put it in the, in the yard. But then, like, I think at the time too, like, a lot of people—and it might’ve been, like, some weird fad where I saw, like, a lot of people had these things where it was, like, hide your keys in these. And then, like, then people knew that they [both crack up] You know, people would be, like, looking for these and be, like, able to find people’s house keys and stuff.
SW: Right. So, so I’m pretty sure…I’m pretty sure you’re not quite old enough to have been a kid, even, during the pet rock craze. But do you know about the pet rock craze?
JC: Yeah, well, I might have been. I can’t remember when that was….exactly
SW: Yeah.
JC: But, yeah, yeah. Well, I tried to revive it, too, with, honestly with my own children and, like [cracks up] that did not work so well.
SW: [laughs] No-o-o. Can you share a little bit? Like, what…what was the reaction? I’m dying to know.
JC: [laughing] I was like, you know, What would be easier than having, like, a fish or a cat or a dog? [cracks up] Let’s have these rocks! And they were like…[unenthused] Great.
[both crack up]SW: Okay. How old were they when you tried this revolution in, in pet care, pet…having?
JC: This must’ve been, like, elementary school, right? Because I’m thinking they were too young and, like. Hey, this could be fun, you know? I mean, honestly, come on, there’s crazes that are, coming back, like, the Tamagotchi, like, digital pets.
SW: Oh, really?
JC: Yeah. There’s, like, a new version, and they’re, like, upgraded and they’re, like, fancier digital versions.
SW: Yeah.
JC: And you have to, you know, feed them and whatever, but, like [laughs] hey. But yeah, that wasn’t…that did not captivate their [laughs] attention.
SW: [laughs] Maybe when they’re older. [both crack up] Maybe, maybe they too will be introduced to, to Rocks, Minerals and Fossils during the Science Olympiad. Okay. So this is an honest, honest question, out of curiosity. Once you have your rocks, what do you do with them?
JC: Okay, so it depends. So, if I’m just… If I just want them out there, I’ll just add them to, like, the yard decor.
SW: Okay.
JC: If I want them displayed, there’s like two ways I do it. So one is, I used to have, like… Even, like in the, in the restroom, we’d have, like, you know, a little like, container and there’ll be, like, here’s some rocks and here’s the little candle, right? And so it might be, like, ambiance.
SW: Okay. Okay.
JC: Okay. But then sometimes I literally just have it, like, on my desk. Like, I have, like, one behind me that I picked up. Well, two technically. I probably have one that’s, like, one of the kindness rocks, but another one…which was a similar idea, I had because my—a while back, my dad had, like, heart surgery, and it has, like. So this rock, actually, I saw at one of the anniversaries of when, you know, he had his surgery and everything went well. And then I think I got it as a, like a remembrance rock.
SW: Right.
JC: And so, so sometimes I have them, like, behind me near my writing area or just around my spaces.
SW: Yeah. That’s cool. So…does that also means you have a lot of…paper weights? [both laugh]
JC: I guess by default, yes.
SW: Okay. And…yeah. So, do you, do you, like…do you collect rocks with friends? Are you part of a, like, you know, rock group [both laugh]
JC: Rock club?
SW: Rock club, yeah.
JC: [laughing] I wish I was in a real rock group, that would be really cool.
SW: Rock. Club. [laughs]
JC: No. No, sadly, I think I’ve just done it alone. I mean…I guess with family, like when we’re out beachcombing. Like, we’ll pick up rocks together.
SW: Right
JC: But in terms of, like, an actual, like, group of people, no. And I don’t know if it’s because I just, I haven’t been assertive in looking or if it’s like, I don’t know that many people are like [both crack up] Yes, let’s go pick rocks together!
SW: Well, what about the, the rockhound that you know, is that a solitary thing for him, as well?
JC: So he will go by himself or sometimes he’ll take his family, or he’ll invite his friends, but they don’t live like near me. So
SW: Yeah
JC: it’s not like I can just, like, go down the street, be like, Hey, let’s go. [laughs]
SW: Yeah. And you know, and—I’m sorry, I’m, I’m not bringing him up because he’s more interesting. Because he’s not. [Jennifer laughs] Sorry, whoever you are. It’s just because I’m trying to get an idea of, like, the different ways that people do this and also, like…and also, maybe, why? What is it—
JC: [laughs] Right.
SW: Yeah. What is it about collecting rocks or seeing rocks or choosing rocks that, you know, interests you now as an adult? I totally get that as a kid and doing science, and I mean, that’s really cool. And actually, I think that would be really fun even now. But [laughs] yeah, so what is it now that keeps you interested in doing it?
JC: I think now, it’s—well, half of it’s the childhood, like, the memories of it, but half of it’s, like, I find… I think I find something very…calming about having rocks. I don’t know if it’s because literally, it’s like I’m being grounded in, like, here’s a stone that’s, you know…
SW: Yeah.
JC: part of something. I mean, if I were more like… I feel like my husband would be more like, the science part of it. Like, Ooh, like, oh, look at these, like, layers of history embedded in the rock or something like that. I’m just like, Oh, that’s nice, and it makes me feel at peace. [laughs]
SW: Right. Okay, so, this is going to sound funny, but do you ever just, like, tell your family, like, Okay, I just need some…rock time [Jennifer laughs] and then that’s your that’s your, like, solo…peaceful time…your solitary, you know, mindfulness time. Do you ever do that?
JC: I, I don’t think I’ve ever said, Can you please, you know, give me some space for rocks?
[both crack up]SW: Yeah. I mean, I’m just asking. I’m just asking.
JC: Yeah. No. I do pick them up, though, and I’m like, okay. But I don’t think I will announce it to [laughs] my family and be like, hey.
SW: Okay. So another question I had, then, is, I do have friends who are really into rock polishing. Is that a thing that you do?
JC: Mm, I don’t. I mean, that’s…that’s cool, but I, yeah, I just—I have the rock, that’s good.
SW: Really? Yeah. That’s so interesting. Do you have a favourite in your collection?
JC: Huh…. Well, I was gonna say when I was younger, I liked the mica mineral because it’s really, like, glitzy, and it’s got, like, flakes, and I— Actually, I went to a beach…a couple months ago, and it had this, like, glittering sand, and I—first, I was like, ooh, is it, like, leftover gold or something? [both laugh] But of course it’s not. I’m like, google it, and I’m like, okay, it’s probably mica, and it’s just, like, literally reflecting off the sun, but it’s still cool! So I think younger, it was that, and then, older..? I do like the clear, like the quartz or, like…well, diamonds are great. [laughs]
SW: Uh-huh. [laughs] I guess I tend to think—I don’t think of diamonds as rocks.
JC: Yeah, they’re—
SW: So is that, are—are gems…minerals…are they considered the same as rocks?
JC: They’re not…but I would, I would lump— Like, because I did them, I mean, because I studied them together, I would kind of lump the minerals in with the rocks.
SW: Right.
JC: But not the fossils, because I don’t know why. [laughs] I just didn’t get into fossils.
SW: Yeah. Oh, that’s interesting. Not at all. I’ve definitely, I was definitely a dino kid. So, yeah, fossils are endlessly fascinating for me. So, diamonds. I feel like that’s really, like, Okay, I understand that. Do you have, do you have another favourite that’s maybe a little more obscure?
JC: [laughs] I do actually like obsidian a lot, as well.
SW: Oh, yeah. So, is that readily available to you? [laughs]
JC: Nah I don’t think so.
SW: Right?
JC: Not unless I go to different geographic areas. [laughs]
SW: Yeah, yeah. So, same with quartz, is that something that you could just find in your area?
JC: I don’t think so. Yeah. I’ve never really, hmmm…yeah, I see, like, a lotta… Naturally occurring, it’d be, like, sandstone or something like that [laughs] that’s nearby.
SW: Yeah…yeah. And, you live in a coastal city, so I don’t know… Are there common, is there some kind of common rock that’s on the…shoreline that you see a lot of?
JC: I don’t know…
SW: Yeah.
JC; [pause] I have to think about that.
SW: Yeah. It’s why— I’m not trying to stump you. I’m just, like, interested.
JC: I’d have to think… Yeah, I don’t know that I see a particular kind, but I guess when I’m walking on the beach, I don’t necessarily… I’m not thinking to myself, like, Hey, what types of rocks [both laugh] am I particularly, like, around me?
SW: Okay. So do you classify yourself as… You know, clearly you don’t consider yourself a rockhound. What are you…a knowledgeable amateur..?
JC: Hobbyist [laughs]
SW: Hobbyist
JC: Hobbyist with a…dusting of knowledge. [laughs]
SW: Dusting of knowledge. Okay, okay. So, if someone now, as an adult—or a child or has children—they want to get into rock collecting. What do you, what do you think is a good way to start?
JC: Ah…well, there’s—I think the, the natural method is to go out, just to somewhere, whether it’s a park or, because I’m near the beaches, the beaches, right? And just kind of look around and just have fun and just kind of have some nice finds. And then the, other way is to literally go to, like, a place that would either— Like, a specialty shop or, like, you know, there’s some, like, it’s more gemstones. But there are places that do, like, you know, you can, like, mine your gemstone or polish the rocks or things like that, that you can—because those are like prettier [Sandra laughs] and more…maybe, luring [laughs]
SW: Right. Which we’re not judging, if— [laughing] However you like your rocks, we are happy for you. Okay. But then also what brought to mind for me is, you know, how with, with, like, birdwatching, sometimes people will have a list of birds that they’re looking for.
JC; Mm-hm
SW: Is that thing that…that rock people do? [laughs]
JC: It is, but not me. [laughs]
SW: Yeah.
JC: I just, I’ll take anything. But, like, we were talking about my other friend, and her husband and… He, I think, literally has, like, specific specimens. And so, he’s looking for, to complete, like, collections, right?
SW: Right.
JC: They have, like…
SW: Yeah
JC: [laughs] I wouldn’t say, one of everything, but something along those lines.
SW: Right. Okay. Yeah. So you can get quite serious like that, in addition to competitions and [laughs] winning competitions.
JC: That’s right.
SW: Okay, you’re trying to complete collections and categories, okay. I mean that totally makes sense. I just…honestly have never thought about it regarding rocks. [laughs] So I’ve just got—a whole new vista of knowledge [Jennifer laughs] that just opened up for me. Yeah. So, do you have any tips for someone who’s collecting rocks? Maybe about, like, storage or [laughs]
JC: Mm-hm-hm-hm [laughs]
SW: You know? What’s…something that makes it really enjoyable, maybe?
JC: Well, for storage, I was going to be, like, oh, keep them… Well, I mean, if you’re displaying them, it’s different. But then, I like having the, like, little pouches and the soft, like, whatever…containers that they— Like, they’ll get scratched up. And, I mean, I don’t really polish mine, although I probably should. [laughs] There’ll probably be, like, a polishing cloth or something if, if it’s one that’s already polished. And then, I mean, the nice thing about rocks? Is like…
SW: Yeah
JC: [laughs] they’re pretty hardy. [both laugh]
SW: Yes, they are.
JC: So, in a way it’s like, okay, it’s fine. But just aesthetically, I do like using them for things. So, like in terms of if you want to make it more functional… So, I have, like, rocks in my, I’m looking, like, over here…
SW: Yeah.
JC: To the side where I have this, like, bamboo plant and I have, like, little rocks around the container. So things like that, you can do and, like, adds dual purpose of, like
SW: Yeah
JC: you don’t just have rocks lying around, and you’re using them for something. [laughs]
SW: Yeah. So, décor—
JC: [laughing] Paperweights, I guess.
SW: Yeah. Paperweights, décor, landscaping. [Jennifer laughs] Yeah. Okay. This is a weird question. Have you ever given a rock as a gift? [laughs]
JC: Not after I gave one to my kids. [both crack up]
SW: Did they [laughing] did they keep those rocks or did they give them back to you?
JC: I don’t think so… I bet you they were like, they’re, like, out in the garden. Like, I can’t remember which ones they were. [laughs]
SW: At least they didn’t pitch them out, you know, the car window or something. [both laugh] Yeah. Okay.
JC: That, or re-gift them! [laughing]
SW: Yeah, or regift… That would be funny. Yeah. Well, this has been so fun. I honestly would never have thought to look into rocks and rock collecting. That’s, like, not a thing that has ever spoken to me. But it’s so cool that this is something that you’ve done since childhood.
JC: Yeah, yeah. Oh, can I make a pitch?
SW: Yes, absolutely.
JC: All right. So, because I like rocks… I, I had a friend—or I have a friend who… She’s from China, and there’s these special rocks. They’re called “you hwa” stones, and, they’re, like, these stones in a specific region where she’s from. And you, they have different patterns in them. And you put them in water, and you—like, the patterns, you know, come out a little bit more in the water.
SW: Oh.
JC: And, so anyway, so because I like rocks, I put them in my next book. [laughs]
SW: Did you? Good for you!
JC: I did! So it’s called Telltale Treats.
SW: Yeah.
JC: And so it has, like, this bed and breakfast setting, but, in the setting, like, someone delivers these rocks.
SW: Yeah.
JC: And so, anyway, it’s a little bit of, part of the mystery of it.
SW: Oh that’s fun. Yeah.
JC: [laughs] That’s why I added it.
SW: Okay, so what—can you say the name of the rocks in, in Chinese again, but slowly?
JC: Well, I’m probably using the American accent.
SW: Okay.
JC: Because it’s, they’re called “yu hwa” stones.
SW: Okay.
JC: Y-u-h-u-a. And it’s… It’s, like, the rain. Like, rain and wa—like, rain and flower stones.
SW: Okay.
JC: Because—there’s, like, a mythology behind them.
SW: Yeah, yeah.
JC: But…it adheres to, like, the pretty patterns and how they came about, from raining from the sky.
SW: Okay, well, I will, I will look that up and put that link to the show notes. So, we’re getting close to—we’re wrapping up. So, I’m going to jump to our—my little Small Joys segment. So Jen, what is something that you do or that you have, that lifts your spirits when you need it?
JC: Oh. [laughs] You mean, besides these rocks, right?
SW: I mean, it could just be rocks, but if you have something else, that would be great, too.
JC: Okay. I’m always up for, I’m always up for tea.
SW: Uh-huh
JC: So this thing that I have is, I try after every big writing deadline, I try to treat myself to something. And my…my go-to treat is actually this Malaysian… It’s Malaysian milk tea. So it’s like…it’s called Teh Tarik and it’s like a hand—usually, it’s—traditionally, it’s like a hand-pulled milk tea, so, where they, like, pour from, like, super high up—
SW: Oh, okay.
JC: So they mix the tea into the milk. But because I’m lazy and I don’t have that talent. [both laugh] I use the milk…the packets, but so sometimes, I’ll treat myself to that, and that will, like,
SW: Yeah.
JC: be kind of a nice cozy cup of milk tea for me. So, I do that. And then, I also like to walk in nature. And I particularly like—because I live near the ocean—I like bodies of water. So, that could be the ocean, but it could be, like, little streams. It could be, like, the burbling fountain [laughs] in a plaza.
SW: Right.
JC: I’ll do that.
SW: Oh, that’s so cool. Yeah. I’m also really partial to bodies of water. Yeah, they, they, they just feel so…grounding, which is ironic because they’re water, but you know what I mean. [both laugh] Oh, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And then, I do have one final thing, and I realize that I forgot to mention this to you. So, surprise! This is the Speed Round.
JC: Ooh.
SW: So, this is where I give you a choice of two options. And then, you just answer off the top of your head. There’s, there’s no right or wrong. You can say whatever you want, whatever comes to mind.
JC: All right.
SW: Yeah. We’re just being silly. [laughs] Okay? Are you ready?
JC: Okay, sounds good, yeah.
SW: Okay, here we go. Popcorn or potato chips?
JC: Popcorn.
SW: Jelly beans or jujubes?
JC: Oh. Hm. I guess, jelly beans…
SW: Yeah. [laughs] You seem perplexed, you’re not sure. Okay.
JC: I’m like, wait, which are, what are jujubes again? [laughs] Because there’s like, different jujube definitions. I’m, like, jujube candies? Or, like, jujubes, like, I think, isn’t there like a fruit or something..? [laughs]
SW: Really? Okay. So I have met—I just assumed everyone knew that jujubes are candy. Also, when I was a kid, as lots of kids who did a lot of reading and had never heard certain words out loud, I thought it was pronounced “joo-joobs.” So, I don’t know, maybe it’s pronounced “joo-joobs” for some people, but I, I learned it was pronounced “joo-joo-bee” so.
JC: That’s how I’ve heard it.
SW: Okay, okay…but you’re a jelly bean girl. Got it.
JC: [laughs] But only certain flavors.
SW: Yes. [laughs] That’s great. Which, what are your favourite? What are your favourite?
JC: The…I’m partial to, like, the red, like, the cherries. Or, opposite—the limes. Like, the green. [both laugh] So, like, so weird.
SW: There’s…no judgements, right? You love what you love. So then, sweet or savoury?
JC: Sweet. [laughs]
SW: Uh-huh. [laughs] Oh, the smile—Okay, friends, the smile that she just gave me when she said that..! [Jennifer laughs] So adorable. Night owl or early bird?
JC: Neither. [laughs] No, I, I used to be a night owl, so I’ll say night owl.
SW: Yeah, but, okay, [laughs] why did you say neither?
JC: Because… After having kids, I’m so [cracks up] Neither, I’m neither. I’m, like, tired at night…
SW: Right
JC: or in the morning, I’m like, Ugh
SW: Okay. [laughs] I mean, that’s good. [both laugh] Next is socks or bare feet?
JC: So-o-ocks.
SW: Okay. So-o-cks…
JC: Socks, but with [Sandra laughs] hesitation.
SW: Yes?
JC: I do like bare feet, but it’s—now that it’s winter, socks.
SW: [laughs] Ocean voyage or mountain cabin?
JC: Mountain cabin.
SW: Yeah. Is that because you already live by the ocean? So you’re like, oh, that’s old hat.
JC: It is, but also, like… I don’t necessarily like going on the voyage part, or the ship part of it..? [both laugh]
SW: Okay. Fair. Absolutely fair. Fine dining or drive thru?
JC: Mm…fine dining..?
SW: [laughs] You don’t really care?
JC: I’m like, can I go [laughs]can I go in between? Because I’m like, I don’t really like drive-thru, I don’t want to go, like, fancy, fancy fine dining. I just like a nice good casual. [laughs]
SW: Absolutely. Right? There’s no judgments. You can say whatever you want. And this is the last one. Mild or spicy?
JC: [sadly] Mild because I’m a wimp. [both crack up]
SW: No judgements, remember?
JC: Yeah, I know, no judgements.
SW: Yeah, it takes all kinds, it takes all kinds. [laughs]
JC: It, it…fascinates and horrifies my, my dad who’s from Malaysia, right, so he’s like, well, I can get you to handle spicy [laughs] because he’s like, totally all about spicy.
SW: Yeah. Aww. You can tell him it’s his fault. [both laugh] His spice genes did not win out. Sorry, Dad. Aw, thank you so much for joining me, Jen. This has been so much fun. Where can people find out more about your work?
JC: Oh, sure, they can go to my website. It’s Jennifer J Chow dot com. So, Jennifer J Chow, c-h-o-w, dot com.
SW: Great. And then, in terms of, like, rock collecting, do you, do you know if there’s like one…website or something that they could go to, to, like, get an intro?
JC: Oh that’s a good—
SW: And if there isn’t, that’s fine.
JC: I…I don’t…
SW: Or a book or something?
JC: I feel like there should be, like, some sort of organization society, but I don’t know off the top of my head. There’s many books. Like, I remember a lot of, like, different field guides, but I…yeah. [laughing] Go to your library!
SW: [laughs] Go to your library. Always. Okay. So, I will do my best, friends, to include relevant links in the show notes, as well as on my dedicated We Contain Multitudes podcast web page, which is on my website. And my website is sgwong.com. Thank you again, everyone, for listening and joining us, lovelies. Thanks again, Jen.
JC: Thank you.
SW: Until next time, create joy for yourself and others, however works for you because…we contain multitudes.
[jazzy jumpin’ music]SW: We Contain Multitudes is on The Incomparable network of smart and funny pop culture podcasts where members can access exclusive podcasts and a wonderful community. Find out more at theincomparable.com.
Special thanks, as always, to Erika Ensign, our editrix extraordinaire of Castria Communications. Award-winning excellence in podcast production and media solutions. Check them out at wearecastria.com.
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[digital blip sound]SHOW NOTES:
Find Jennifer online – https://jenniferjchow.com
Mohs Hardness Scale – https://geology.com/minerals/mohs-hardness-scale.shtml
Yuhua stones – https://www.yypebble.com/news/nature-s-essence-the-formation-and-geological-85209019.html
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ICYMI: What does it mean to be famous? – https://sgwong.com/blog/what-does-it-mean-to-be-famous/)