This chat was an unmitigated delight—so much so, we did it twice. (Details in the episode.)
As usual, this transcript faithfully reflects the content and tone of our conversation, with some judicious editing to make sure things read smoothly.
Show notes are included after this transcript. (If you somehow stumbled across this post without knowing about the podcast episode, hi! Here’s a handy link to find the interview on the web.)
TRANSCRIPT:
[jazzy jumpin’ music]Sandra Wong: Hello and welcome to the season one finale of We Contain Multitudes, the casual interview show with famous and accomplished guests who share the geek-outs, hobbies, and interests which they might not necessarily be known for. I am your host, Sandra Wong, once again, and today I am so, so lucky and thrilled to be joined by Deanna Raybourn. Hi, Deanna.
Deanna Raybourn: Hello, darling. How are you?
SW: I’m good. [laughs] I’m great. I am so, so thrilled to have you here. Again.
DR: I’m so happy to be here again.
SW: Again, yes.
DR: Yes. We get to talk again about one of my favorite topics.
SW: Again. We’re going to, we’re going to explain that “again” in a little bit, friends of the podcast. But first I have the delight, the utter pleasure of reading out a little bio that I wrote about Deanna. [clears throat purposefully] So here we go. This may or may not seem familiar to you Deanna, I don’t know, because you know how I feel about you. So here we go. [laughs] All right. Deanna Raybourn is an utter delight. I could absolutely just stop there. But that’s old news, isn’t it? I suppose it’s also old news that Deanna’s novels are bestsellers, that she’s an award winning author, and that her works are regularly critically acclaimed and multiply nominated for awards as well. So how about this for something new? I’ve been a fan since the very first Lady Julia Grey book, and have delightedly read every single novel of Deanna’s since that first historical. I’ve also read a bunch of the short stories, save maybe one, and all of the standalones. I am also a massive fan of her current two series. They’re—do we say “concurrent”? They’re running at the same time, right? That means concurrent.
DR: We could absolutely say “concurrent.”
SW: Yeah? Concurrent. Okay. The absolute—[laughs] Her current two series which are running concurrently. Oh, I said it. One is the historical [Deanna laughs] Veronica Speedwell series and the other is the contemporary that starts with Killers of a Certain Rage—Certain Age. [pause] Let me say that again.
DR: No. You know what? Killers of a Certain Rage actually works, too. [laughs]
SW: [laughs] Awesome, awesome. Okay.
DR: It’s a very good alternate title.
SW: Oh, thank you so much. So, on a more personal note, I have always admired Deanna for her wit, exquisite bon mot, and stylishness—absolutely. But also because of the grace and intelligence with which she navigates a career in a very tough and very mercurial industry. So there you have it. That’s my humble take on—
DR: That is just—that is…so beautiful. Beautiful. It’s the second time I’ve heard that.
SW: [laughing] I know.
DR: And it’s just as enchanting as the first time.
SW: Aww, I’m so glad.
DR: I want a copy of—Like, e-mail me a copy of that, because I’m just going to walk around, and when I meet people, say, here, this is what you need to know…
SW: [laughs] Okay, I love it.
DR: according to Sandra Wong.
SW: I will do that. I will do that. So, okay, friends of the podcast, we keep saying “again” because, I met up with Deanna… She very graciously met up with me actually just last week, and we had a really amazing conversation.
DR: It was so much fun.
SW: And, and someone…forgot to hit record on that one..? [laughs] And that would be me.
DR: Yes, she did, Sandra, she did.
SW: It was me. So any amount—
DR: It was you.
SW: [laughing] Any amount of ribbing you want to give me, Deanna—well-deserved. And I will take it on the chin.
DR: I don’t know, man. Is it too soon? I feel like it’s almost too soon.
SW: It isn’t! [laughing]
DR: I feel like it’s almost too soon.
SW: It isn’t, because you’re back now and that’s what matters, so.
DR: I am back. I am back because you graciously invited me to come back after you, kind of, you know, I think wanted to do yourself a mischief. You were, you were…
SW: [laughing] I mean
DR: put out with yourself [laughs] for forgetting to do that.
SW: Did some secret unconscious part of me mess that up so that I could see you again? I mean [laughs]
DR: Hundred percent. Hundred percent. I know. [Sandra cracks up] I’m not even sure it was secret unconscious. You might have done it deliberately.
SW: Ohhhhh
DR: [audible air quotes] Might have done.
SW: [laughing] I’m just— We’re gonna move on. Yeah, sure. So
DR: We should.
SW: actually, why don’t we find out from you what you want to talk about with us today? I’m so excited.
DR: We’re talking tarot.
SW: [singsong] Tarot. So—
DR: The cards.
SW: Yes. [laughs]
DR: Not the root.
SW: I was going to say that. [laughs] T-a-r-o-t.
DR: Oh, there’s so many things—I’m super into poi. No, no.
SW: Yeah.
DR: I’m into tarot cards. So we’re going to we’re going to [Sandra cracks up] we’re going to talk tarot.
SW: We’re going to talk tarot. I’m so excited. So, way back in the mists of time, I used to have an Instagram account, and I used to love seeing you and your posts whenever you would pull a card. So.
DR: Ahh
SW: Yes, I know.
DR: I—I don’t think I’ve pulled a card for Instagram in quite a while. I need to get back to doing that.
SW: Yeah. Well, it’s been a long time since I had an Instagram account, so that tracks.
DR: There you go.
SW: That tracks, so.
DR: There you go.
SW: I know that, that was a daily practice for you. So can you start us off, with, like, what… What is that daily practice for you with tarot?
DR: It is still a daily practice. Every morning, as soon as I, you know, get up and chase the dogs around and brush my teeth, I sit down and I do my, my meditation. And, you know, it starts off with a little pranayama, a little…
SW: Mm-hm.
DR: a little proper breathing. And then I do my meditation. And then when I’m finished with my meditation, I pull a card for the day. And usually it has to be one of the decks that I feel really, really connected to, that I really love the artwork, and it just, it’s a, it’s a deck that just feels good to work with. And I pull a card for the day just kind of to… It’s more a tool for clarity. I don’t… You know, people have lots of different ways that they interact with their tarot decks
SW: Yeah
DR: and they have lots of different things that they’re looking for when they go interact with a deck. And it can be…you know, some folks like a kind of a, a predictive or, you know, more of a, let’s say, fortune telling aspect. I prefer to use it as more of an indicator of what I need to be paying attention to.
SW: Right.
DR: You know, one of the best ways is if I sit there and I pull, like, a Four of Swords, which, you know, looks a little bit scary. It’s, you know, somebody who’s, who’s kind of lying there in a, in a position of repose, and there’s four swords hanging overhead. You might think that that, it’s a little menacing, but really, the Four of Swords is just saying you need rest. Are you getting rest?
SW: Right.
DR: And so it’s a good opportunity If I pull a Four of Swords, to say, okay, am I…am I rested in the ways that matter?
SW: Right
DR: Am I spending too much time on social media? Am I putting too much pressure on myself about whatever my work in progress is? Have I, have I taken a proper day off? You know, because it’s, it’s very easy when you work from home and when you have a creative occupation like we do, to work all the time [Sandra laughs] because you don’t ever completely turn it off.
SW: [laughs] I don’t know what you mean.
DR: [laughs] So it’s, it’s very, very easy for us to let those lines blur.
SW: Yeah, yeah.
DR: And when those lines blur, it’s very easy to let your self-care slide, because you have to make, you have to draw really clear boundaries, and you have to really make a priority of taking care of yourself, when there’s no clock to punch out,
SW: Yeah, yeah.
DR: you know, when you don’t have a commute home to kind of process getting away from work. And especially, you know, when there’s an artistic and creative process going on, that happens at odd times, you know. I mean, I get more ideas in the shower or when I’m doing dishes
SW: Oh yeah
DR: or, you know, like, there is no division between the art and the life.
SW: Yeah.
DR: So you have to make doubly sure, I think, that you’re attending to proper rest.
SW: Yeah.
DR: And proper care and rest looks like a lot of different things. Rest isn’t just sleep. Rest is, am I not taxing my mind too much? Am I not taxing my heart too much? Am I not draining my resources too much?
SW: Yeah.
DR: You know, in the dumpster fire of the world right now, you spend too much time engaged with what’s going on, and you don’t have the resources you need to fight where you need. You know,
SW: Mm-hm
DR: the very concept of self-care was popularized, if not actually invented by people at the forefront of the civil rights movement.
SW: Right.
DR: You know, because these are folks on the frontlines who know if you don’t take care of yourself, you’re going to burn out.
SW: Ye-a-a-h
DR: If you don’t take care of yourself, you’re going to deplete and you will have nothing. And so when you’re drawn in a million different directions, refilling that and replenishing that, you know, well, inside of you, is not an act of selfishness. It’s, it’s an act of, of…generosity because it means you’re going to be able to give
SW: Right.
DR: you know, to the people who need it. To the causes that need it. To the projects that need it.
SW: Okay. So one of the things that brought up…a question for me was when you said, you like to work with decks that feel good. So what does—
DR: Yeah.
SW: What does that mean. How does a deck feel good? And how does a deck feel bad? Like, what is that?
DR: You know I’m super into the aesthetics of a deck. I like, I like a pretty deck. I like deck that, you know, where the artwork appeals to me. Some people like decks that are maybe a little more in-your-face or maybe have a darker element to it.
SW: Yeah
DR: I, I like decks that are either really beautiful or whimsical.
SW: Right.
DR: I have a deck with panda bears that are hand-drawn—
SW: [laughs] I love it!
DR: which is ridiculous and adorable. It’s the cutest thing I’ve ever seen. But the, the decks that I work with on a daily basis, there are two in particular that are really, really superb. One is a tarot deck put out by St. Soleil and it is, it’s, they’re creamy cards with beautiful illustrations, and there’s a lot of gold, gold foil inside of it. Another one is a hand drawn deck by Cat Pierce called the, The Wandering Star Tarot.
SW: Right.
DR: And that’s the one I’m using everyday right now. But both of those decks are just beautiful. And…I probably shouldn’t even be admitting this. I’ve got about 50 or 55 decks [Sandra laughs] to choose from, which is…I mean, come on, it’s not that bad. Okay, it’s a little bit out of hand. But those are the two decks that I, I work with the most often. And the thing that I love about them and the reason they’re very, what I would consider to be really accessible decks is, I’ve got keywords on them. So if you’re not somebody who’s really familiar with tarot…
SW: Yeah
DR: These are decks you can pick up and you can start reading right away.
SW: Right.
DR: Because you, you know, the… Most of the decks that, that people are familiar with are kind of loosely based on the Rider-Waite-Smith deck from the early 1900s. And everybody’s seen the imagery on those decks, whether you know you have or not,
SW: Right
DR: you’ve seen the imagery on those decks. And so a lot of people have used those decks as a jumping off point, because now they’re considered, you know, every variation of the Rider-Waite-Smith is kind of considered to be a classic now, and so—and that original deck…I don’t love it. Like, it’s fine.
SW: [chuckling] Right.
DR: It’s fine, it’s fine. But these other decks have just a particular aesthetic style that appeals to me, and I really, I love the keywords. I just, I think that’s such a fun little touch. And, you know, Cat Pierce in The Wandering Star deck incorporates the keywords into the design. So you have to look for just a second, and then you go, oh, okay, it says creativity and nurturing and
SW: Yeah
DR: you know, this on this particular card, which is fantastic. The St. Soleil deck puts them at the bottom, so that you can, you can enjoy them and [pauses] or at the top. Either way, they’re, they’re right there in your face, which is
SW: Right.
DR: you know, just so hugely helpful because tarot, you know—78 cards. It could take you a minute or two [Sandra laughs] to figure out how to read a deck if you’re looking at them cold.
SW: Yeah. So I think I probably just have a layperson’s, like, popular culture idea of tarot. [Deanna laughs] So, you mentioned 78 cards. So what, like, just really basically, what’s the breakdown? What kind of cards? Are they, like, you know, like, when we have playing cards, there are number cards and then there are face cards.
DR: Mm-hm.
SW: Is it something like that?
DR: There are so many similarities
SW: Okay.
DR: between a deck of playing cards and a deck of tarot cards. And you have two different groups within a deck of tarot cards. You have the Minor Arcana and the Major Arcana, and the minor are the ones that look like actual playing cards.
SW: Oh, okay.
DR: You have four suits which actually do kind of have a correspondence to the, the suits that we’re accustomed to
SW: Right.
DR: from a deck of cards that we would play with. And the, the four suits in tarot are Swords, Wands, Cups, and Pentacles. And they each symbolize a different aspect of our life.
SW: Mm, okay.
DR: You know, Pentacles is, is about things that are, that are grounded and earthy. So, it might be your money, it might be your body, your health, you know. Wands are all about energy and fire, and, you know—because they all correspond to elements, too.
SW: Okay.
DR: Fire, earth, air, or water. And so you, you have a deck that will go from an ace up to your court cards, just like a regular deck of cards. The only single difference is that you have your king and queen, and then you have a knight for each suit.
SW: Okay. Right.
DR: And then you’ve got a page which is kind of underneath the knight. It’s got very youthful energy of that, of that whatever that suit is.
SW: Yeah.
DR: So they give you one extra card for each suit and then you’ve got the, the Major Arcana. And those are the ones that have the, the single picture on it. And that kind of represents something that maybe is a bigger influence in your life at any given moment.
SW: Right, yeah.
DR: It can be something like the Sun, or it can be the Empress, which is this beautiful woman who’s sitting on a throne, and she’s got a big pregnant belly,
SW: Mm-m-m
DR: and, you know, she represents fertility and abundance and, you know. Or it may be the Emperor, who’s looking a little stern, or it might be the Lovers. And so it, it starts with the Fool, which is card zero. And then it goes up through card 21. And everybody, I think, has probably seen the Fool. The fool is
SW: Yeah.
DR: you know, kind of blissfully and blithely taking off on a journey, you know, a, a journey of discovery, and this little adventure of a lifetime, and head is in the clouds, and sometimes there’s a little dog scampering around at the feet. And sometimes they have a little pack of belongings. And then you look, and you realize that they’ve just stepped off a cliff. [deadpan]
SW: Right. [laughs]
DR: Which is… And, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing, because when you step off of a cliff, you know, you may find that the ground actually rises up to meet you, or you may find out that you’ve got wings you didn’t know you had. Or maybe the fall isn’t as far as you thought it was going to be.
SW: Right, right.
DR: So, you know, but the the cards are supposed to represent just your, your journey throughout life. And it may not be your chronological journey, it may be a spiritual journey. And we have lots of those over the course of a lifetime. So maybe the journey you take with a particular job or a particular relationship or with yourself.
SW: Right. So, I’m just, there’s so many millions of questions. So how about we start with, how did you get started? How about that? Because everyone starts somewhere.
DR: Oh, you know—yeah, I’ve always been intrigued by tarot. I, you know, I think, like everybody else, I probably saw them in the movies for the first time. And, you know the movies almost always have an incredibly problematic depiction of tarot.
SW: Right.
DR: It, it’s, it’s always, like, some probably racially…
SW: Mm-hm.
DR: difficult depiction of a Roma fortune teller, you know, who’s, who’s sitting there turning over the death card and telling you, you know, you’re going to die in ten minutes. [Sandra laughs] Which is a hundred percent not how it works.
SW: Not how it works, friends.
DR: Not how it works. But…I was always interested in it because I think of that. And I couldn’t even tell you the first time I ever saw tarot in a TV show or movie. I can’t even remember the first time. But I bought my first deck when I was in my 20s, and I [chuckles] I made the mistake of buying a reproduction of an extremely old deck.
SW: Okay.
DR: This is a, this a Visconti-Sforza deck, which is, like…15th century?
SW: Hmm!
DR: An extremely—because tarot cards, there are a couple of different discussions about where tarot cards originated, but they seem, the consensus is that they seem to have started as kind of an adjunct to playing cards.
SW: Okay
DR: with Italian noble families. And so you would commission your own deck and it would have, like, members of your family might, you know, be used for portraits. And then you would use them just to play games within the family. And then, they kind of developed into a tool for prognostication. And Visconti-Sforza is one of the oldest decks in existence. And it’s a beautiful deck.
SW: Yeah
DR: It’s got a lot of gilding on it and it’s very fancy, and it’s got—you know, the symbolism is kind of very arcane, and I could not read it for anything. It was the most impenetrable deck.
SW: Oh.
DR: And so, I just kind of left it in a drawer for about thirty years. And then, I think it was probably only about three or four years ago that I started to get serious about tarot. I took a couple of workshops, I took a couple classes, I started collecting decks, I started reading on a regular basis and just absolutely fell in love with it as a tool for…kind of self-knowledge and also a tool for creativity.
SW: Yeah. Okay. So I have two things I’m keeping in mind now I want to ask about. [Deanna laughs] So, I’m going to ask the first about was there some kind of…was there some sort of impetus for you, three or four years ago, as you say, that got you, like, more serious about tarot?
DR: No, I think it was just one of those weird rabbit holes that [Sandra laughs] that I mean, you know, I don’t know a single writer who isn’t in love with rabbit holes—
SW: [laughing] Um…yeah?
DR: You know, like, we just— You find a topic you’re interested in and you just go…
SW: Yeah.
DR: searching for it. I had—oh, you know what?
SW: Yeah?
DR: It may have been when I had to write a scene that included tarot. I think that’s—that is exactly what it was, now that I think about it. There is a scene in Killers of a Certain Age that is in Jackson Square. In New Orleans. And it includes one of my assassins pretending to be a tarot reader.
SW: Right.
DR: And that was, that was loosely based on an experience I literally had in Jackson Square with a tarot reader. And so I, in order to make the scene work, I needed to go and do some research
SW: Yeah
DR: on tarot, and I needed to make sure that the cards I was having my fake tarot reader turn over would be meaningful in a way, you know, so that…if people understood tarot, they would look at that scene and go, oh, that guy’s definitely gonna die. [Sandra laughs] But not just have somebody turn over a death card or a hanged man or whatever, you know, any of these cards that look really terrifying. I needed her to to have a more subtle reading for him.
SW: Yeah.
DR: That’s what it was. It was, it was having to write that scene, and I went and got my—that was when I got myself a Rider-Waite Smith deck, because I did a little research and found out, oh, girl, you went in at the deep end with that Visconti-Sforza.
SW: [laughing] Right.
DR: And so I needed a more accessible deck. So I got the Rider-Waite Smith…
SW: Yeah.
DR: Took a class, realized I didn’t love the Rider-Waite Smith, and that there were a million other decks out there. And I started, I started purchasing some and I started backing some on Kickstarter. Because you can get the most exquisite decks on Kickstarter.
SW: Oooh.
DR: That are limited edition. That, you know, most, like, they’re not available in stores. And so for somewhere between, like, $50 and $70, you can have this gorgeous piece of art, that’s limited edition, that you play with or work with on a daily basis. And you support an artist who’s trying to work independently. So it’s kind of a win all around.
SW: That’s so cool. So in, when you were in Jackson Square, then, did you actually get a reading done?
DR: I did, I did, I was in Jackson Square…I think it must have been… Oh, it was, like, a Bouchercon…or Romantic Times convention, or something like that, that I was, I was in Jackson Square, it was years ago. And I was walking, a friend of mine and I were walking across in front of the cathedral, and we were almos—and if you’ve been to Jackson Square, you know, it’s loaded with people sitting at card tables. You know, they’re selling art or they’re selling palm readings. All sorts of stuff goes on in Jackson Square. It’s amazing. I love it. But we’re walking across the square in front of the cathedral, and we get all the way across it, and for no good reason whatsoever…
SW: Yeah
DR: I turned around and—like, I felt this prickle between my shoulder blades, and I turned around and looked and there was a woman sitting at a card table with a whole deck of tarot cards, and she looked at me and she made this just very slow, very subtle, beckoning gesture.
SW: Oh my goodness. Wow.
DR: And I grabbed my friend who was, like, halfway out of the square at that point. And I said, no, no, we have to go get our cards read.
SW: Yeah.
DR: And so we went and sat down and, you know, she gave me a really lovely reading. And then she read for my friend and she said, “There is a man in your life that you’re close to, and you are taking a wait-and-see approach with his health, and you need to not do that.”
SW: Ooh
DR: “You need to get him checked out immediately.” And so my friend went home, and I only found out this part about a year later.
SW: Yeah.
DR: My friend went home and told her husband, ‘Listen, you know, when we went to the doctor last week and he said, let’s take a wait-and-see approach on your prostate numbers, which are terrible. We’re not going to do that. We’re going to go get a second opinion.’ He had prostate cancer.
SW: Oh wow. Wow.
DR: He had prostate cancer. And because they didn’t wait another three months to get him retested, he was able to immediately get surgery, get treatment. And he’s doing fine. And I, I—when she told me [laughs] I just about fell over because I hadn’t, I mean it was like, seriously, it was like a year later that she told me this story and I was like, My word. That was, I just, you know, full-body chills. I thought that was amazing. And fascinating. And I’m a person who doesn’t actually use tarot
SW: Yeah
DR: in a, in a predictive way. But that’s like, Lord. [laughs]
SW: What—is that, like—yeah. So, for me as the layperson, as I say, that jibes with what I think tarot is. [laughs]
DR: Yeah.
SW: Right?
DR: Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, there yeah, I, I never discount the fact that people can be used as messengers.
SW: Right.
DR: When there is a message you need to hear.
SW: Yeah.
DR: And however that comes through. If, if there is something that you need to be hearing from, from the universe.
SW: Yep.
DR: You know, it’s, it’s going to come to you somehow. And it came to her, you know, and, and if I hadn’t turned around, if the, if the tarot reader hadn’t beckoned, if my friend hadn’t listened, you know, all of these little dominoes had to fall just so. But I, yeah, [laughs] that to me is one of those stories where you just go, ooh the woo is a real! [both laugh]
SW: Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And at the same time, like, that story also…it’s a confluence for me of, of, you know, my layperson’s impression of tarot as being predictive, but also kind of the intersection of what you’re talking about and how you use it in practice, which is, it’s a dedicated reason and time to stop
DR: Mm-hm
SW: and, and assess and think and just, you know, be with one’s self, which you—I mean, is that, do I have a good impression?
DR: Absolutely. And, you know, there are, there’s apparently a big meetup in New York City every year for psychotherapists who get together and—
SW: Wha-a-at?
DR: They use tarot in their practice because there are, there are Jungian symbols in tarot that kind of tap into the collective unconscious. And it’s a very easy way to get somebody thinking and talking about something that may be going on in their life. You know, I, I knew a man— I very, very rarely read for other people, but I met a man who had…kind of undergone a number of personal losses in a very short period of time. And every time I read for him, the Three of Swords would turn up. And the Three of Swords is, it’s, in a wa— The weird thing is, most tarot decks will have some variations in them, but the Three of Swords is almost always the same. It’s a heart.
SW: Yeah. Ahh.
DR: It’s three swords piercing it.
SW: Yes.
DR: And that is, it’s a, it’s a card of grief. It’s a, it’s a card of heartbreak. And every single time, I would, I would turn this card up and I’m like, there’s, there’s loss there that hasn’t been processed.
SW: Yeah.
DR: And he would say, yep, there is. And we would just go on about the rest of the reading. But every time, it’s like that little tap on the shoulder, you know, saying, hey, you know, this, this is still sitting here. And—
SW: Yeah
DR: that’s fine. That was, you know, because that was not something that he necessarily wanted to address. He was getting on with his life and he didn’t want to wallow in that.
SW: Yeah.
DR: But it was just a reminder that, yeah, these things have happened.
SW: Yeah.
DR: And, you know, he’s, he’s kind of walked hand in hand with this loss for a while.
SW: Right.
DR: And so it was, if nothing else, it was a reminder to him to be gentle with himself. Which is, you know.
SW: Yeah.
DR: God, we can all probably use that reminder.
SW: Yeah, that’s—exactly.
DR: But, you know, the “woo practices.”
SW: Right.
DR: And tarot certainly falls under that umbrella. [Sandra laughs] It’s fascinating to me how much we are starting to find that science is actually proving some of the woo practices have a basis in science. You know, in reality, there’s, you know, whether, whether you call…whether you call it prayer or positive visualization or, you know, manifestation or, you know, it’s your vision board or whatever attraction theory—all of that falls under quantum physics.
SW: Wha-a-at?
DR: You know. Yeah, I mean, they’re, they all say exactly the same thing, which is, your actual vibration is attracting stuff.
SW: Right
DR: They’re, I mean, I, I remember the first time I found out, like, we all know about the Indigenous American practices of smudging.
SW: Right.
DR: You know, smoke cleansing, specifically with white sage. And that, that came into the woo practices. You know, white people started doing it. We’re, we’re blowing smoke all over the place now [Sandra laughs] you know. Let’s cleanse this. Let’s cleanse that. Well, then they finally broke it down in a lab and realized that sage smoke has got antimicrobial properties. It literally cleans the air when you’ve had sickness.
SW: Yeah.
DR: So it’s not just a woo practice, you know. Yeah, there, there are elements to it
SW: Yeah
DR: that we package that way. And don’t even get me started on the way that, you know, white folks love to co-opt Indigenous practices
SW: Ugh, yes.
DR: and then sell them to other folks.
SW: Yeah, but Indigenous science is real. It’s a thing.
DR: But Indigenous science is real. You know, just because we haven’t always confirmed it in a lab, you know, with, by people in, in, in starched white coats doesn’t mean that it’s not real. And the funny thing is, the more we dig into these practices, the more we find, yeah, they, they actually do have a basis in things that we can quantify.
SW: Yeah.
DR: I mean, I’m, I have hyperventilated for years. And it was not until I adopted the Ayurvedic practice of pranayama, that I got that under control.
SW: Right.
DR: Well, you tell someone, Yeah, I’m doing alternate nostril breathing and you describe it to them, and they’re like, Hm, that’s weird. [Sandra laughs] And then [laughs] but it’s not. You know, it’s part of…Traditional Chinese Medicine, it’s the same thing. You know, these are, these are practices and systems that have been around for thousands and thousands of years. And people know they work or they wouldn’t keep doing them.
SW: Yeah, yeah.
DR: You know, and it’s just because we’ve got this idea that if it didn’t come out of a laboratory in the last 20 years, it’s not real. And I think it’s fascinating how many of these practices we’re getting back to and finding out, No, there actually is a real benefit to so many of them.
SW: Yeah, it strikes me too, talking about vibrations and— I do, I am also woo. [Deanna laughs] Just for the record, friends of the podcast, I am also woo. And I do believe that we have different vibrations, also at different times of our, of the day, different times of our lives. Right? So I’m imagining that when one is practicing tarot, you—when you practice for yourself, you read for yourself, you pull cards for yourself, your vibrations are really focused internally…
DR: Yeah
SW: but also being open to whatever the universe is wanting to tell you. But I imagine, because you said you don’t like, you don’t often read for others, and that, I would, I’m guessing that’s, like, having to be in tune with another person’s vibrations and—
DR: Yeah.
SW: Right?
DR: And, and there’s, there’s this pressure. [both laugh] Then you see it like, you don’t want to turn over cards that are going to freak them out. Because you’re like, oh no, what if they, what if they—? Because the thing is, the more you practice, the more you realize there are no bad cards.
SW: Okay, yeah.
DR: There are just cards telling you different versions of what’s going on, cards that are drawing your attention to different things.
SW: Right.
DR: And so if you draw, like—everybody is scared of the Hanged Man.
SW: Right.
DR: Because, you know, he’s, he’s hanging upside down by one foot. And they’re like, ooh, that looks ominous. Well, but he’s not being lynched. He’s hanging upside down like, like a butterfly chrysalis. He’s waiting.
SW: Oh
DR: He’s waiting. He’s in the, he’s in the process of transformation. And he’s in that period of time where he can’t really go anywhere. He can’t really do anything.
SW: Right.
DR: So he might as well wait with grace for what’s going to happen. In the meantime, he’s got a change of perspective. [Sandra laughs] Because if you’re standing upright, you have a very different perspective than if you’re hanging upside down.
SW: Right.
DR: So that’s an opportunity to say, what’s my perspective right now?
SW: Okay.
DR: What, you know, yeah, maybe this isn’t a good time for me to be taking action. If, if things are not really moving right now, should I be changing my perspective on this? Or…can I just embrace the fact that things are not moving right now and enjoy the rest?
SW: Right.
DR: Can I just be at peace with it? Can I just be right now, instead of trying to force things?
SW: Yeah. I have to think, too, whoever name that card The Hanged Man did it a real disservice [both laugh] because it does sound… It does sound…like there’s mortal danger.
DR: It should just be the Upside-Down Guy.
SW: [laughing] Yeah
DR: [laughing] It should be the Upside-Down Guy.
SW: How about the Dangled Guy? Like. [laughs]
DR: Here you go, here you go. He is definitely a dangler. Yeah, that’s exactly, that’s exactly what it is, you know.
SW: The Dangler. Okay. So, so taking the pressure out, you don’t have to read for other people, but you mentioned using tarot in a creative process.
DR: Yeah.
SW: So, and I’m imagining that has to do with characters and stuff. But, can you talk more about that?
DR: Yeah. There are different ways you can do it. Yeah, there are absolutely different ways that you can do it. I have done character spreads, which are, you know, sometimes it’s just pulling a single card, sometimes it’s doing an entire spread for a character to see what their whole arc could be.
SW: Cool.
DR: It’s just, it’s a way of playing with characters. I mean, I used to do it with astrological signs.
SW: Right.
DR: You know, I would—because if you’re going to set up conflicts between two characters,
SW: Yeah
DR: giving them their astrological signs and then saying, okay, they’re off on this big adventure and everything’s going to hell…
SW: Yeah
DR: My Sagittarius is going to react very, very differently than my Cancer is going to react. [Sandra laughs] You know, the Cancer just wants to go home already, you know. Take me back to the Shire. Whereas the Sagittarius is like, Hell, let’s go to Mordor. You know what I mean? Like.
SW: [laughing] Yeah
DR: They have wildly different ways of reacting to the world, and it’s, you know, it’s the same thing with tarot. You can, you can just use it as a game to play with. You can say, okay, if I were going to, if I were going to pull a card to represent this character.
SW: Yeah.
DR: You know, who do I want this character to be? And you can just shuffle through the cards and look through them and say, oh, man, you know what? I’m really vibing with this Queen of Swords. Well, what’s she all about? Why do I, why do I gravitate towards her for this character? Oh, she’s all about intellect. She may have a cutting remark. She is all—you know, she’s way up here in the mind. She’s not grounded in the body. She’s going to overly intellectualize things. That’s her fatal flaw. And she’s going to think too much about stuff. Maybe she’s going to hold back and not take action where she should. Those are all things, then, that you can sit there and play with and say,
SW: Ye-a-a-h
DR: Is that who this character is?
SW: Yeah.
DR: Or go, oh, you know what? No, man [Sandra laughs] she’s a Knight of Wands. She’s going to charge in, you know, just guns blazing. She doesn’t care what she leaves in her wake. She’s going to just go straight in at everything. And, and that can be fun, too.
SW: Yeah.
DR: You know, and so there are different ways that you can use the cards just to play with. For me, the cards are extremely positive and they’re extremely fun. They’re, they’re…I wouldn’t say they’re a toy, but they’re definitely a creative tool.
SW: Mm.
DR: And I think the more creative tools we’ve got, just the more enjoyable we find the process. I mean, I don’t, I’m not one of those people who buys into the whole tortured artist stereotype. [Sandra laughs] I mean, I don’t, I don’t like to suffer for my art. I like to enjoy my art.
SW: Right.
DR: I like to have fun with it. You know, I—you can see right now because you can see me.
SW: Yes.
DR: I’ve got multiple vision boards for different projects because I think it’s fun to, you know, print out…pull up maps and print out pictures and, you know, a lot of times I’ll have, like, the red string up and do an actual proper murder board, which is amazing.
SW: [laughing] Love it.
DR: Yeah, but it’s, it’s really terrifying for contractors if they have to come through, you know, and [both laugh] Ma’am. Ma’am. There’s a murder board in your house. I’m just going to quietly be reporting that to the FBI.But, yeah, I mean, and tarot is just another one of those tools that I think is, is great fun. You know, I mean, I play with lots of things. I’ve, I’ve made cocktails that my characters would drink and I’ve, I’ve, you know…
SW: Oh, love it.
DR: Bought perfumes that I think that, you know, because I want to know what they would smell like. To me, tarot is just, another way to play.
SW: Yeah.
DR: And the other thing that you can do, too, is you can do a tarot spread for the project itself.
SW: Okay.
DR: To say, you know, I did that when I was trying to, to start the project I’m working on right now because it’s out of my wheelhouse. It’s something I’m not super comfortable— Like, when I go to write a Veronica Speedwell book…
SW: Right.
DR: Girl, I know what I’m doing.[Sandra laughs] I’ve written ten of them. [laughs] Like, this is my comfort zone. You know, I know exactly what I’m doing. I know who these people are. The book I’m working on right now is a contemporary. These are brand new characters. It’s a brand new world.
SW: Oh?
DR: And so, I was like, okay, what am I going to do here? And so, just for fun, I sat down… There’s a great book called Tarot for Creativity by Chelsey Pippin Mizzi and she has a wonderful array of spreads in there. And so I just pulled one and did a spread for the, the book.
SW: Yeah.
DR: And what it turned up was when I looked at all the cards put together and I kind of pulled the meanings together and kind of put them together into a single kind of synthesized reading… What I came up with is, always go back to the relationship between the two main characters. When I’m stuck.
SW: Ahhh. Yeah.
DR: When I can’t figure out how to move this forward or how to get out of this hole [Sandra laughs] that I’ve written myself into—always go back to the relationship between the two main characters. Because that is going to be what’s driving
SW: Right.
DR: so much of the plot. Don’t try to be super clever, you know, up here in my head, or I would have had a lot of Swords in there. No, I have a lot of Wands. I have a lot of Wands, which is about energy, which is about, you know, how these, these things are moving forward. It’s not about—I didn’t have Cups. So it’s not about, like, the, the relationship between them, as much as it is about how they’re interacting with each other within the framework of the, the adventure that they’re on and how they’re moving forward.
SW: Oh, okay.
DR: And so, I was like, oh, that’s a, that’s a great thing to bear in mind.
SW: Yeah.
DR: You know.
SW: That is so cool.
DR: Yeah. That one I posted on Instagram. [both laugh]
SW: Yeah. So I mean, friends, if you are on Instagram, you should follow Deanna and then you’ll be able to find that spread. But I will definitely link to this book, Tarot for Creativity.
DR: Yeah yeah yeah. It came out last year and it’s, it’s a really—it’s a good read if you’re interested in using tarot, not in a, like a personally predictive way or in reading for other people, but just as an adjunct to your own creativity. And it’s great for writers, for artists, like visual artists. It’s great for musicians. Any, any that where you want to tap into your creative process. It’s fantastic for that.
SW: Yeah, that is so cool. I imagine, too, there are probably tarot cards that are Braille. I’m, I’m so interested to look that up. Yeah, I’m going to look that up.
DR: That’s amazing.
SW: Yeah. I wanna see if that’s a thing.
DR: That is amazing. I hadn’t even thought about that.
SW: Yeah.
DR: Which is horrifying to think that I hadn’t thought about that. I’m so glad you raised that as a, as a possibility… My God, I hope so.
SW: I’m going to look that up. I mean, I’m also, like—I’m also weird. So, I’m also like, is there a Hello Kitty tarot? Does anyone, does anyone know? [laughs]
DR: Okay, I have, I do need to send you links to a couple of the tarot decks that I’ve got, because they are so whimsical and so sweet.
SW: Yeah.
DR: And just, like, if you’re kind of a little bit intimidated or afraid, you could never. [Sandra laughs] Like, I have the most charming Winnie the Pooh tarot deck, and it’s, like, vintage Winnie the Pooh, because that’s public domain now.
SW: Awww. Yeah.
DR: But then they had to wait a year before they put Tigger in the deck, because Tigger came along a year after the rest of the Winnie the Pooh characters. So they did a Winnie the Pooh deck and now there’s an “And Tigger Too” deck. Because they—and they’re just, they’re vintage A.A. Milne
SW: Yeah
DR: Winnie the Pooh characters. And they’re just so adorable. How can you can’t be scared of Winnie the Pooh?
SW: [laughing] How can you be scared? Yeah.
DR: I mean, come on.
SW: Yeah. Oh… So, I think you touched on it already, but just to be clear, what do you think are, like, the top two or three misconceptions people have about tarot?
DR: Oh, the—probably the biggest one is that it is scary, or that it has something to do with the devil or satanic rituals. Nothing could be further from the truth. Straight up. In the Major Arcana, there is a Devil card. It does not mean the Devil, in the same way that the Death card does not mean death. The Death card means transformation. It’s the death of a situation.
SW: Yeah.
DR: It just means that the way things have been going along, mm, that might be ending. How do you feel about that?
SW: Yeah.
DR: It may be the death of a previous identity for yourself, you know, because you might get the Death card if you’re going to an empty nest situation and the hands-on day-to-day mom-in-the-trenches doing, you know, packing all the lunches—that role is over for you.
SW: Yeah.
DR: You may get a Death card. Oh, we’re moving. We’re transitioning into a new phase. It’s the same with the Devil card. The Devil card is not about Satan. The Devil card is about what’s hanging on to you. Because the funny thing is, if you look at the vast majority of the illustrations on the Devil card, there’s usually a man and woman and they’ve got chains on. They’re manacled.
SW: Yeah
DR: But almost always, the manacles are large enough that the people could just slip right out of them if they wanted to.
SW: Oh.
DR: They don’t even realize that they’re being held prisoner by their beliefs.
SW: Yeah.
DR: So what is it that’s keeping you tied up? What is it that’s keeping you from moving forward? From being free. From, you know, is there something that you are straight up addicted to? Is there something that maybe is, you know, are you spending too much time on social media?
SW: Yeah.
DR: Are you spending too much money? Are you, you know, are you eating, you know, too many ice cream sandwiches? [Sandra laughs] Like, what is it that’s, that’s got a hold on you? And is it something that you feel good about having a hold on you, or is this something that you really, your subconscious wants you to take a better look at?
SW: Yeah, yeah.
DR: Because you know that this is not in alignment with where your values are. And that, on your subconscious level, you’re letting yourself down. So, do you need to take a look at that?
SW: Yeah, yeah.
DR: That’s what the Devil card is. But a lot of people will look at that Devil card and just get absolutely terrified and go, No, Satan, get behind me. [Sandra laughs] And, you know, rock on with that. There are some, there are some little superstitions around tarot cards that I think need to go away.
SW: Okay.
DR: The first one is that you’re never supposed to buy your own deck, and that is ludicrous.
SW: Right.
DR: You absolutely should buy your own deck because…how ya gonna know what you like?
SW: [laughing] Yeah
DR: Until you go—I mean, you need to do your own shopping. Because, you know, you’ve got your birthday, and then maybe you’ve got a major holiday, like, you know, Christmas or whatever, and you’ve got people buying you gifts. Well, you may only get two or three decks a year that way. [Sandra laughs] Girl needs more tarot! Buy your own decks! No, plus, you know, like I said before, if you’re on Kickstarter or a place like that, then you’re supporting artists who are independent
SW: That’s right.
DR: and who are really trying to, to make a go of this. And their profit margins are so slim on tarot decks. And they really, they work so hard to put out really beautiful, and meaningful pieces of art. I mean, these things—I will not use “AI” decks. These are—so, these are all decks that are hand-drawn.
SW: Yeah.
DR: That take, you know, hours and hours and hours because there’s 78 cards. And a lot of times, the decks you get that are independent will have maybe an extra card or two, as well, that they like to create. Like, I’ve got the, the Cat Pierce deck, the Wandering Star, has got a Yes card and a No card.
SW: Oh.
DR: So that you can ask some yes/no questions. And, you know, that’s not even about, is this thing going to happen for me? It’s
SW: Yeah, yeah.
DR: how would I feel if this thing happened for me? Do I, would I feel good about this? And you can turn up a No and you’re, like, no, but I would feel wonderful about this. Well, maybe you just got some clarity, then.
SW: Yeah. Oh, and it strikes me, too, that all of these independent artists who are drawing tarot cards, they themselves must be practitioners, to understand, right?
DR: Yes.
SW: To infuse each card with the things that need to be on there. That’s fascinating.
DR: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And there’s so many resources out there
SW: Mm-hm
DR: for figuring out how you want to interact with the cards. There are people who are extremely intellectual about it. There’s a, practitioner by the name of Benebell Wen, who has written—it is, I mean, girlfriend should have called this The Encyclopedia
SW: Right.
DR: of Tarot because her tarot book is so thick and she’s designed an extraordinarily beautiful deck of her own. But, she is a lawyer. She has a very analytical approach to tarot cards.
SW: Ohhh. Yeah.
DR: And she also, you know, she’s, she is a practitioner of I Ching. So she’s, she’s got a lot of other elements that she brings into it and extremely intellectual in her approach. If I were a beginning practitioner, I would find Benebell extremely intimidating. [both laugh] Because she’s just so knowledgeable and so thorough.
SW: Right, right.
DR: But she also does deck reviews on her blog, which is fantastic. Because you can go in and see what some of the decks really look like, and she will show you all of the cards in the deck.
SW: Yeah.
DR: Which is fantastic. And then, there are other resources. I love, personally my absolute favorite place online is a place called Biddy, B-i-d-d-y Tarot.
SW: Okay.
DR: And, I want to say she’s Australian and she does a breakdown. You can just put in, you know, ‘Seven of Wands, card meaning’ and it will pull up the card, it will describe the traditional imagery, and then it’ll tell you what the card means. But it’s done in a really conversational way. It’s super thorough,
SW: Yeah
DR: but not overwhelming. It’s just very much as if she’s talking to you, telling you, ‘hey, this is what this card, you know, means for a lot of folks. This is what it can also mean. Here’s a thought for you.’
SW: Yeah.
DR: And so that’s another really great way to—
SW: Oh, that’s so cool.
DR: Yeah, to kind of get to know tarot. And then every good deck comes with something called the Little White Book.
SW: Okay.
DR: Many times, they are not white. [Sandra laughs] That’s just a nickname for them, but it’s a, it’s a guidebook to that particular deck. And so it will tell you, you know, every card can have multiple meanings. And so this deck’s White Book will tell you what the deck’s illustrator was thinking about that card when they drew it. And so, a Little White Book can be an extraordinarily valuable tool in helping you figure out how, how a particular deck works. But everything comes down to what you think it means.
SW: [laughing] Right.
DR: You know, it’s all about—because, and this is probably the most woo thing I will say to you.
SW: [laughing] Okay.
DR: It is actually about having a relationship with your deck, you know? It’s, it’s about… It’s in the same way that, you know, you have, if you’re a piano player, you have a relationship with your piano. You know, it’s a, it’s a tool. It’s a, it’s a place that you play. It’s a place that you find things out. It’s a place that you experiment, you know, and you have to— Yeah, you could do this with other kinds of tools just like that one. But there’s always going to be one or two that are your favorites that
SW: Yeah
DR: you know, you just feel like, oh, this fits. And that’s the way tarot is.
SW: Oh that’s so cool.
DR: And for me, so much of it comes down to, to just what it looks like and how I feel when I’m riffling through the deck and it feels like, a beautiful, you know, kind of friendly experience, then, yeah, I’m going to, I’m going to go through there and, you know, pull some cards and kind of get a, get a read on my day
SW: Right.
DR: and my week. Or I may do a bigger one to get a read on a particular project or an entire season of my life. And, you know, how do I feel about that? What do I think about that?
SW: Yeah. And also you mentioned classes. So I’m guessing, like, people can find in-person classes, right?
DR: You can do in-person classes. You can do Zoom classes. You can do workshops. You can do classes where you kind of study at your own pace.
SW: Okay.
DR: And, you know, there are so many resources out there. I did a course with Kris Waldherr, who is an author who has her own deck. She also writes historical fiction and she’s very into tarot. It was a great class. And she did a whole reading, like, how to set up a reading for a character. So that was great fun.
SW: Yeah, yeah.
DR: And then, there, there’s a platform called Daily Om, which does a lot of classes and they’re kind of a pay what you feel you can you can afford. And you’re, you know, here’s the suggested amount for a class. But yeah, you know, you can pay less. You can pay more. And there’s a fantastic introduction to tarot class on there.
SW: Okay.
DR: I think it’s broken down…oh, maybe, like, eight lessons and they’re fifteen, twenty minutes each. You listen as you want to, and then you just kind of practice on your own. And at the end of that, you’ll have a really, really great understanding, like a basic grounding of tarot. And you can follow people online.
SW: Yeah.
DR: You can follow people on social media. There are loads of people who will do, like, a tarot a day pull, and, you know, help you figure out. And then… Yeah, I was trying to think if there’s any more…
SW: Oh but that’s a lot, that’s a lot.
DR: That is a lot. And then, Michelle Tea wrote a great book called Modern Tarot.
SW: Okay.
DR: Which is a, it’s a good entry point book
SW: Yeah.
DR: if you, if you need a place to start.
SW: Yeah. Oh, thank you so much. I love having lots of links in the show notes for people to find out about these, these—
DR: So many links! [laughs]
SW: Yeah, different topics. So I really, really appreciate that. Yeah, I think… I mean, I think that’s actually a really lovely place to wrap this part of the conversation. So thank you. And, anyone who has questions about tarot, you will find answers in the links in the show notes. Like [laughs]
DR: Absolutely, absolutely. Or, you know, I mean, if you want to ask me a question on Instagram or Bluesky, those are the two social media platforms I’m on. I’m happy to answer. I am not a tarot expert. I am, I am an enthusiastic practitioner.
SW: Yes. [laughs]
DR: Which is, which is a very different thing. But I am, I’m more than happy to answer questions. And every month in my newsletter, I recommend a different deck.
SW: Okay.
DR: And we, we talk about a different deck that I’ve got in my collection so I can tell you, you know, hey, this is what I like about this or this is, you know, this is what’s special about that one.
SW: Oh, I love that. I love that, too. Thank you so much for that.
DR: Yeah.
SW: Okay, so we are going to move into our wrap-up time. And that starts with my Small Joys segment. [Deanna chuckles] So let me ask you, Deanna…
DR: Yes, ma’am.
SW: What is, what is something that you do or that you have that lifts your spirits when you need it?
DR: Tea.
SW: Ah.
DR: I love me some tea. I, and I think I, I think I told you this story on our, on our defunct episode, the mystery episode that has disappeared.
I absolutely adored my paternal grandfather, and he died when I was about five years old. But I have a, I have a very specific memory of him taking me into the kitchen to, to prepare tea because his wife, my grandmother, was English, and he would fix afternoon tea every day. It was his job. I don’t know why. He was from Virginia. [Sandra laughs] Why was he the one making tea? I have no idea. But there was always a very particular fragrance that I associated with him, and I didn’t know what it was after he died, because I never smelled it again. And then, when I was a teenager, I smelled it, and it was bergamot. And I realized that for me, the smell of Earl Grey tea is my grandfather, because that was the tea that he used to brew every afternoon for my grandmother. That’s what I’m drinking right now.
SW: Yes
DR: Is some Earl Grey tea. And I got myself a really, I treated myself to a wonderful advent calendar this year from Whittard, and it was a tea advent calendar, which, I mean, there is nothing greater than a tea advent calendar. Because, I mean, it’s no calories, it’s no sugar bump where, you know, you’re running around kind of mindless because you’ve just buzzed yourself up too hard. It’s, it’s perfect. [Sandra laughs] A tea advent calendar is a glorious thing. So, it’s always tea. I put the kettle on probably, four, six times a day, something like that.
SW: Yeah.
DR: There’s just nothing better than that moment when you first pick up the cup, and there’s that steam coming up, and you just—there’s a part of your psyche that, I swear to God, is just hardwired to go [sighs] ah.
SW: Yes! Ye-e-e-s!
DR: And just take it down a few notches. [Sandra laughs] So yes, it’s tea, it’s always tea.
SW: I will always—I understand that on a very deep level. So I grew up drinking tea and it was always, different variations of Chinese black, usually. So my, my relationship to Earl Grey tea is, Earl Grey tea is the first…I guess I tend to think of it as…Western
DR: Mm-hm
SW: tea that I ever drank. [Deanna laughs] When I was, when I was old enough to order my own beverages and be out with my friends, I almost always had Earl Grey tea. So I have a very, I have a deep fondness for Earl Grey.
DR: Fancy. [Sandra laughs] I love it, I love it. Well, yeah, because, I mean, she’s a fancy tea. Like, she’s, you know, she’s not just your run of the mill…
SW: Yeah.
DR: every day, you know…
SW: Yeah.
DR: We’re just gonna sweep up the tea dust [Sandra laughs] from the bottom of the warehouse floor and throw it in your cup. No. She’s fancy. She has bergamot. [laughs]
SW: I mean, and also it— Sometimes, too, when I’m feeling, you know, whimsical. I will have Lady Grey, which is the Earl Grey with citrus, which is also lovely, but anyway, that’s a whole different episode because I also love tea. But I, I’m—thank you for sharing that story. That’s really lovely.
DR: Ye-a-ah
SW: Okay, so now we’re going to, like, take it up a notch, energy-wise. You didn’t think we could, friends, but we can—
DR: [softly] I’m scared.
SW: because we’re going to the Speed Round. So this is where I’m going to give you, Deanna, a choice of two options. And you just, like, answer whatever comes up for you, off the top of your head.
DR: [softly] Nonsense
SW: There’s no judgment.
DR: Okay, but please.
SW: Yes.
DR: Please recognize: I am a Gemini. [Sandra cracks up] You ask me these questions today? Fine, you’ll get one set of answers. You ask me tomorrow? You might get a completely different set of answers. So.
SW: [laughing] Okay. Caveat accepted.
DR: I cannot be held, I cannot be held to these answers, is what I’m saying.
SW: Absolutely. I—we understood. I have signed the agreement that I understand. [laughs]
DR: Excellent.
SW: Okay. So—
DR: Hit me.
SW: Are you ready? Okay. First, popcorn or potato chips?
DR: Popcorn because you can put chocolate or caramel on it or I can [Sandra cracks up] No, no, no, wait. Okay. So this absolutely blew my mind. My local fresh market had Honeycrisp apple caramel popcorn [Sandra gasps] this fall, and it was a religious experience. I had, [Sandra cracks up] like, I ate half the bag as soon as I opened it. Then I went, oh no, oh, this is bad, this is very bad. [laughs] Yeah. So, you can do lots of things with popcorn. I do love a good potato chip, but I’m going to say—see, I would have had more trouble if you had asked me popcorn or tortilla chip.
SW: Oh
DR: I am originally from South Texas. There is no chip better than a tortilla chip. So we’re going to have to go, we’re gonna have to go popcorn.
SW: Okay.
DR: We’re just going to go popcorn.
SW: Got it. Got it. All-righty. So, next up is jelly beans or jujubes? Which are a type of candy, in case people don’t know that.
DR: Jelly beans, specifically tangerine.
SW: Always tanger—
DR: And only tangerine.
SW: [laughing] Only tangerine.
DR: I like, literally, only tangerine.
SW: Got it.
DR: Yeah, I will get, like, a pound of them at a time.
SW: Oh!
DR: And yeah, it’s—
SW: Fun. It’s fun! [laughs]
DR: No, it’s bad. [Sandra cracks up] It’s very, very bad. [laughs]
SW: There are no—there are no bad snacks. I’m just going to say that. There are no bad snacks.
DR: When you end up with a headache?
SW: Okay [laughs]
DR: because you have pounded so many jelly beans..?
SW: [laughing] That’s just bad impulse control.
DR: That’s not good.
SW: [laughing] That’s different.
DR: [laughing] That is bad impuls—that is very bad impulse control.
SW: Okay. Oh, this one, then, will be very interesting. Sweet or savoury?
DR: Okay, this is going to shock you, but savory.
SW: Oh, yes, I am shocked. After that pound of tangerine jelly beans. [laughs]
DR: I know. I would far rather have—I can go, like, ages without having sweets at all.
SW: Yeah.
DR: I would far rather have, like, cheese and bread and a glass of wine than a big slice of cake.
SW: Yeah
DR: I’m savory. All day long. Every day. [Sandra cracks up] I’m all about the savory.
SW: Got it. Next up is, night owl or early bird?
DR: Oh, I am the earliest pf birds. I like to meditate when the sun is coming up, and after about 8:30 in the evening, I am good for nothing.
SW: [laughing] You’re done.
DR: Nothing. Done. No, I mean, you know, I love—one of my favorite things in the world is to put on my pajamas and eat dinner in bed.
SW: Oh, yeah.
DR: And I just watch TV and go to, you know, then I read and go to sleep, and it’s like, the whole evening is just in bed because—[mock outrage] I’m not talking to people. [Sandra cracks up] I’m not going anywhere. Good Lord, I’m not going anywhere. The sun is down. No, seriously. I mean, I might as well be a Bennet sister, for as much as I am willing to go outside after dark. It’s like, no, no, absolutely not.
SW: [laughing] Okay. Early bird. I got it. Right. Next up is, socks or bare feet?
DR: Bare feet.
SW: Yeah.
DR: Yeah, it’s a little bit tricky this week [Sandra laughs] because it’s about 12 degrees outside, which I am not accustomed to, and I’m literally still sitting here in bare feet, so I…
SW: Yep. Mm-hm.
DR: Bare feet.
SW: So then, ocean voyage or mountain cabin?
DR: Ocean. Ocean. Your girl does not like altitude.
SW: Ohhhh, friends, she shook her head at me.
DR: [almost growling] Noooo
SW: She shook her head at me.
DR: I grew up in a place where the elevation was like 900ft. And where I live now, the elevation is like 60ft.
SW: Yeah [laughs]
DR: I am a flatlander. I cannot cope— Keep your mountains, keep your hilly places [Sandra cracks up] I cannot cope. Oh, they’re pretty to look at from a distance, but I don’t need to go up them. Like, it’s fine. It’s fine. I just, I, I love me a beach.
SW: Yeah. Yes. Okay. Two more to go. So, fine dining or drive-thru?
DR: [sighs] You asked me this the last time, and I had trouble with it, and I’ll tell you why. [Sandra cracks up] Because I—it’s going to be fine dining simply because I don’t really eat fast food.
SW: Yeah
DR: And it’s hard to get anything through a drive-thru [laughs] that isn’t awful for you. So, yeah, I will say fine dining, but we don’t need to be snooty about it.
SW: Yeah [laughs]
DR: We don’t need to be snooty.
SW: Yes. Okay. And this last—
DR: We don’t need a Michelin star.
SW: Oh, yeah. No, no. No, I mean, and that’s so, that’s such—hmmmm. Anyway, I have opinions about that. That’ll be some other time. Ahem. We’re moving on to the last one, last option, two options, which is mild or spicy? I know your answer. [laughs]
DR: Girl. Spicy. Spicy. We like things spicy. Now, let’s not get crazy.
SW: Okay.
DR: Like, I don’t need a ghost pepper experience.
SW: Yes [laughs]
DR: I mean…black pepper is not a spice. [Sandra cracks up] Like, we need heat. We need some heat.
SW: Yes, well, you were raised in Texas, in South Texas, you said, so.
DR: Yes.
SW: Where—when you were growing up…what, what provided the heat for you, in the foods you were eating?
DR: Well, anytime you go to a Mexican restaurant in South Texas, a Tex-Mex restaurant, you sit down and there is a bowl of salsa and a basket of chips. And the salsa is, is not—like, she’s not mild.
SW: Yeah
DR: Like, it’s there for a kick. But I remember even the fried chicken place we used to go to, you know, there’s the fried chicken and the coleslaw and then there is the whole pickled jalapeno.
SW: Ooh
DR: And you ate the whole pickled jalapeno. So that’s like all the seeds and everything else like that, which is, you know, I’m six years old, noshing [Sandra laughs] on one of those suckers. It, I mean, that’s, I mean, I don’t, I don’t actually like to go too much hotter than a jalapeno, or habanero in limited doses.
SW: Right.
DR: I mean, you know, I’m a, I’m a woman of mature years now [Sandra laughs] I will have to take Pepcid if I get too crazy. The first time I realized I couldn’t just mainline chili crisp at dinner and go to bed anymore? Like, I would have to take the Pepcid? I was like, oh, damn, I’m oooooold.
SW: [cracking up] Ohhhh, you crossed the Rubicon.
DR: I have crossed the Rubicon. The spice does not like me back. But yeah, it’s, you know, I like a little heat.
SW: Yeah
DR: I like a little heat. So I got my Cholula, and I’ve got my Texas Pete’s, and I’ve got my, you know, my—I have multiple types of sliced jalapenos in the fridge.
SW: [laughing] Oh yes.
DR: Like, I’ve got regular ones and then I’ve got the ones that have a little sweetness to them. Because a candied pickled jalapeno is a, is a glorious thing.
SW: Ohhh.
DR: So yeah, we have, we have different ways of applying heat to food.
SW: [laughing] Yes. I did not know about candied pickled jalapenos, and now I am very curious.
DR: Yes! So the first time I had them, there’s a hotel in Houston called the Zaza, which has amazing, delicious room service. And they put them on the breakfast tray, to put with your eggs. And it was a revelation. And then I found out, you can find a duplicate for these at Trader Joe’s. They’re called sweet hot jalapenos. And they’re fantastic. But you’d want them, like, they work really, really well with, like, certain cheeses. Or you put them in, like, if you’re going to do a tuna salad or something, you can put a kick in there.
SW: Neat!
DR: Yeah, they’re fantastic. I love them. But we also sometimes just need the straight jalapeno experience.
SW: [laughing] Yep. Yep. Oh I love it. Ohhh! That’s so…I love learning new things. Especially food things because I love food. [both laugh] So thank you for that. And of course, thank you so much, Deanna, for joining me—again. [laughs] I have had such a wonderful time again—
DR: Again.
SW: because you are, as I said, a delight. Thank you for sharing your joy.
DR: Aww this was so much fun. Thank you so much for having me back.
SW: Ye-e-e-s! [Deanna laughs] And so, of course, I should probably be thorough. Where can people find out more about your work?
DR: At deannaraybourn.com.
SW: [makes trumpet flourish sound] Okay. Yeah. So, friends, as always, I’m going to put all the relevant links that I can comb out of the episode in the show notes. And then, also on my dedicated We Contain Multitudes podcast web page, which is on my website, sgwong.com. And just a reminder: Friends, this is the season one finale, so please stay tuned a little bit longer for some further thoughts from me on the occasion of our finale. Because, you know, I just want to have some extra fun with you all. But for now, I’m going to say thank you again, Deanna.
DR: Thank you. This was just a joy. Any time I get to hang out with you is an absolute treat. And I’m, like, I’m honored to close out your first season. Congratulations.
SW: Thank you so much! So, thank you for joining us, as always, lovelies. And until next time, create joy for yourself and others, however, works for you because—we contain multitudes.
[a little jazzy music plays under the following]SW: Well, lovelies, that is a wrap on the inaugural season of my wee show. As a fun bonus though, I thought it might be fun to take a look at our season one Speed Round stats. Okay, the fine print being, not every tallied pair will equal nine. That’s just how it goes.
So, popcorn got five and a half votes. Potato chips three and a half. Jelly beans got six. Jujubes, two. Four votes for sweet, five votes for savoury. Night owls, six. Early bird, three. Socks, six. Bare feet, three. That one, I don’t understand. [laughs] Ocean voyage got four votes. Mountain cabin got six. Fine dining, despite all the hemming and hawing and the caveats, got six and a half votes. Drive-thru got one unequivocal vote. Mild got two, and spicy got seven.
Thank you for joining me this season. I hope you’ve had some laughs, lots of smiles, and maybe even found yourself returning to episodes to lift your spirits.
To Premee, Mary Robinette, Olivia, Erika, Jen, Robin, Grant, Jenny, and Deanna: I am deeply, deeply grateful. You all are gorgeous souls and it was a privilege to spend time with you, and your nerd sides. Thank you all for kicking off the show with me.
Of course. Thank you, thank you, thank you Erika, for making sure every episode reflects the fun and flavour of each individual conversation I recorded.
Lovelies, in case you’re wondering, there will be a season two. I’ve actually got to take a break to focus on a couple of writing projects, you know? You know—did you know I’m a working author? [laughs] But I will be firing up the machinery again soon with hopes to bring you more bright spots of joy later this year.
Til then, I wish you all much love and laughter. I hope you’ll remember this show whenever you want a reminder that there is joy in the world and that you are not alone.
[jazzy jumpin’ music]SW: We Contain Multitudes is on The Incomparable network of smart and funny pop culture podcasts where members can access exclusive podcasts and a wonderful community. Find out more at theincomparable.com.
Special thanks, as always, to Erika Ensign, our editrix extraordinaire of Castria Communications. Award-winning excellence in podcast production and media solutions. Check them out at wearecastria.com.
[music fades]Robotic voice: The incomparable podcast network. Become a member and support this show today. theincomparable.com/members
[digital blip sound]SHOW NOTES:
Deanna’s website
Deanna on Bluesky and Instagram
St. Soleil Tarot Decks
Biddy Tarot
Visconti-Sforza tarot deck
The Rider-Waite-Smith Tarot Deck (Atlas Obscura, 2015)
The Wandering Star Tarot by Cat Pierce
Tarot for Creativity by Chelsey Pippin Mizzi
Winnie the Pooh: Exploring a Classic, from High Museum of Art
Sanrio releases official Helly Kitty tarot deck (July 2025)
Benebell Wen
What is the I Ching (Yijing) Book of Changes? (by Benebell Wen)
Tarot for Storytellers (and more) by Kris Waldherr
Daily Om course, Read Tarot Cards Like a Pro
Modern Tarot (and more) by Michelle Tea
Whittard Advent Calendars
º The only Braille editions I’ve found online are Rider-Waite-Smith decks, but they do exist.
º Kickstarter has 2445 open projects under “tarot decks” at the time of these notes.
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